Hypothesis Free will doesn't exist and how you can benefit from that

[T-800]

I've decided to make my first thread on the expectation and fallacy of free will. I will go over why I personally believe it doesn't exist, and how YOU can directly benefit from knowing my hypothesis. Enjoy, and don't be afraid to comment or rebuttal me!

Spoiler: Why free will doesn't exist

As conscious beings, we are constantly reminded or informed that we are innately free. That we have the ultimate choice, the choice of life. We choose how we live life; whether by being a drug addict, a school teacher or an eco-terrorist nomad. But, what if I were to tell you that your emotions outride reasoning, or in layman's terms, biology beats logic?

Your choices are shaped by brain chemistry, wiring and past input (biology, biology, past experiences). When you decide on something, your prefrontal cortex and basal ganglia light up before you're aware of it. This indicates that your brain often makes decisions before your conscious mind becomes aware of them.



A series of experiments from 1983 investigated the relationship between brain activity and conscious awareness of a decision. This was named the Libet experiment (after Benjamin Libet). This experiment discovered that the readiness potential, or brain activity, starts about 350 milliseconds before a person reports making a conscious decision to act. To put it another way, the brain "decides" before us.



That gut feeling that you always hear about is actually your limbic system processing emotion faster than reason. Your brain is constantly predicting the next moment, even spontaneous decisions come from past neural patterns. Before you even register a potential reaction, your brain has already run the problem/action through its 3 main authorisation checks (brain chemistry, wiring and past input).

So, I hypothesise that if decisions are determined by biology and environment, we do not have true, free will. Only a mimic that is strictly influenced by pre-determined checkpoints.

Spoiler: How you can benefit

Being capable of controlling the factors that decide our decisions is exactly how we are capable of manipulating success. We control the subconscious mechanisms that tend to make our behaviour by subjectively organising our surroundings, daily habits, and interactions with other people. The consciousness of emotional bias power also encourages us to reflect and slow down, allowing reason to beat out instinct—something we can do through mindfulness, introspection, or the like. In this respect, genuine freedom perhaps does not reside in having spontaneous decisions, but in our capacity to control the circumstances deciding them.

TL;DR You can take advantage subconscious, emotional bias by improving your environment and outlook on life.

Spoiler: Signature

Thanks for reading! Rep me!

Hasta la vista, baby.


@Dean @Randomized Shame @johnvee84 @ragnarok787 @Mess

 

[Mess]

Dnr, but good first thread.

 

[T-800]

Bump

 

[johnvee84]

This is why I spent so much time just fucking around, thinking my destiny would ultimately happen regardless... And I'm still waiting

 

[T-800]

This is why I spent so much time just fucking around, thinking my destiny would ultimately happen regardless... And I'm still waiting

Destiny is, and will always be coping mechanism for unfulfilled dreams or indolence. I cannot respect the man who waits for destiny.

 

[jkcwakcjw]

TERMINATOR!!?!?!

 

[Deleted Member 70432]

n***a THIS IS WHY GURDJIEFF A MYSTIC SAID U NEED TO BUILD TRUE WILL.

 

[Deleted Member 70432]

 

[johnvee84]

Destiny is, and will always be coping mechanism for unfulfilled dreams or indolence. I cannot respect the man who waits for destiny.

So free will exists, gotcha

 

[T-800]

So free will exists, gotcha

No, destiny is just a way for people to cope with the non-existence of free will.
If I handed you a gun and said that if you didn't shoot yourself out of free will, I'd kill 5 children, is that truly free will on your behalf? There are external factors. Your destiny wasn't to be a sacrifice, but I, a third party, forced that. Is that free will?

 

[johnvee84]

No, destiny is just a way for people to cope with the non-existence of free will.
If I handed you a gun and said that if you didn't shoot yourself out of free will, I'd kill 5 children, is that truly free will on your behalf? There are external factors. Your destiny wasn't to be a sacrifice, but I, a third party, forced that. Is that free will?

If destiny exists it would be pre determined if you would pull the trigger

 

[galaxygirl]

Dnr, but good first thread.

LMFAOOOOO THIS GUY REPLIED TO HIS OWN THREAD IM CRYING

 

[Mess]

LMFAOOOOO THIS GUY REPLIED TO HIS OWN THREAD IM CRYING

I was trying to conceal my identity...

 

[T-800]

If destiny exists it would be pre determined if you would pull the trigger

The idea of pre-determinism stems from religion. I don't buy into it.
I was more so talking about how you decided before you actually decided.

 

[galaxygirl]

A series of experiments from 1983 investigated the relationship between brain activity and conscious awareness of a decision. This was named the Libet experiment (after Benjamin Libet). This experiment discovered that the readiness potential, or brain activity, starts about 350 milliseconds before a person reports making a conscious decision to act. To put it another way, the brain "decides" before us.

That gut feeling that you always hear about is actually your limbic system processing emotion faster than reason. Your brain is constantly predicting the next moment, even spontaneous decisions come from past neural patterns. Before you even register a potential reaction, your brain has already run the problem/action through its 3 main authorisation checks (brain chemistry, wiring and past input).

TL;DR You can take advantage subconscious, emotional bias by improving your environment and outlook on life.

This is really interesting i never knew the brain "decides" for us basically. But how can we be sure that that brain activity isn't just our brain processing whatever event just happened, or whatever question we were just asked? How can we be so sure that it is not just your brain running in the background, similar to how our brain runs when we sleep?

Very good thread love this. I've also always believed in the thought that we can take advantage of our emotional and subconscious bias by improving my environment and my outlook. I always clean the areas around me so that I myself can perform at a higher level, and I surround myself with people that are better than me.

If you are the best, the smartest, or the strongest in a room... you're in the wrong room.

 

[T-800]

This is really interesting i never knew the brain "decides" for us basically. But how can we be sure that that brain activity isn't just our brain processing whatever event just happened, or whatever question we were just asked? How can we be so sure that it is not just your brain running in the background, similar to how our brain runs when we sleep?

Fig. 4.3. Diagram of sequence of events, cerebral (RPs) and subjective (W), that precede a self-initiated voluntary act.
Relative to "0" time (muscle activation), cerebral RPs begin first, either with preplanned acts (RP I) or with no preplannings (RP II). Subjective experience of earliest awareness of the wish to move (W) appears at about -200 msec; this is well before the act ("0" time) but is some 350 msec after even RP II. Subjective timings of the skin stimulus (S) averaged about —50 msec, before the actual stimulus delivery time.

This basically is saying that the decision was made unconsciously, not that it's regular, background brain processing.

 

[johnvee84]

The idea of pre-determinism stems from religion. I don't buy into it.
I was more so talking about how you decided before you actually decided.

I would let the little fuckers die.

 

[T-800]

I would let the little fuckers die.

Based as fuck, John.

 

[Randomized Shame]

This is normally an unpopular opinion among these types of discussions, but it is my own so I will share it anyways.

I do not see mechanical mechanism as the equivalent a lack of free will. We know we have free will, because every time the mechanism is triggered, the outcome is different 100% of the time. We sometimes can make predictions based off of these mechanisms (we do this in the study of psychology), but I would not say that humans lack free will because of their predictability.

This is not the best example in the world, but it's all I can think of at the moment: A bike is your brain. Your consciousness is you riding your bike. In a world where it is impossible to separate you from your bike, does it really matter if it's you pushing the pedals or if it's the mechanical movement of force pushing the pedals, and the bike moves forward because it's what it's designed to do? You can make an argument for either/or, but I think the differences is negligible. The bike's movement will not exist without your force, and your force will not exist without you. The science of why the bike moves forward is interesting, but I would not say that the conclusion then is 'The bike controls everything, therefore you're just a passenger'. I understand why someone would call you a passenger, I don't understand boiling it down to just that.

Environment plays a factor in why we do what we do, and our mechanical parts of our brain play a part in what we do, and you could make the argument that our genetics play a huge role as well. There's a lot of things that play a part in why we do what we do, and like I said previously, in my opinion, the differences in that being the deciding factor vs what we roughly understand as 'free will' is negligible.

With that being said, re-framing what we think free will is, as an opportunity to try and better ourselves is not inherently wrong, in my opinion. If you see your actions as mainly controlled by chemical or environmental factors, then addressing those factors makes sense to do, and will reduce the shame associated with the inability or lack of desire to change.

If you are stressed out 24/7, and your body is stressed out 24/7, which causes your heart beat to increase and your body always to be in overdrive, I can understand why you feel like you cannot control yourself from feeling sleepy all the time. You are your chemicals, and your chemicals are you - but if re-framing that mindset allows you to see your actions externally and helps you to address them, then that's a good thing. Maybe in the example I used, you would get a beta blocker instead of trying to brute force yourself to stay awake all of the time. That makes sense to do, and you might've not come to that conclusion if you didn't view it differently.

 

[T-800]

This is not the best example in the world, but it's all I can think of at the moment: A bike is your brain. Your consciousness is you riding your bike. In a world where it is impossible to separate you from your bike, does it really matter if it's you pushing the pedals or if it's the mechanical movement of force pushing the pedals, and the bike moves forward because it's what it's designed to do? You can make an argument for either/or, but I think the differences is negligible. The bike's movement will not exist without your force, and your force will not exist without you. The science of why the bike moves forward is interesting, but I would not say that the conclusion then is 'The bike controls everything, therefore you're just a passenger'. I understand why someone would call you a passenger, I don't understand boiling it down to just that.

This was a good analogy; you believe free will still exists, even if our brains work like machines. The bike might be mechanical/functional, but you're still the rider. However, I believe that the distinction between you riding the bike and the mechanical forces doing the work should be quite major. It reminds me of the classic question, "Who baked the baker?" Both sides contradict each other, but both sides confirm each other.

With that being said, re-framing what we think free will is, as an opportunity to try and better ourselves is not inherently wrong, in my opinion. If you see your actions as mainly controlled by chemical or environmental factors, then addressing those factors makes sense to do, and will reduce the shame associated with the inability or lack of desire to change.

Yes, that was my main point that I was trying to carry across. Discussions of free will will always be left to opinions and philosophies. I believe that there will never be a definitive answer, and that's a good thing. The fact of the matter is that everyone's interpretation of free will always has the common factor that we experience choice — whether that choice is influenced or even partially determined by biology or environment, we still feel the weight of making decisions. This weight can and should be mitigated by shaping our biology and environment.

I'm too tired to reply to the rest of your points, sorry, man! Thanks for interacting thoroughly. I appreciate it!

 

[The cat from The Matrix]

I've decided to make my first thread on the expectation and fallacy of free will. I will go over why I personally believe it doesn't exist, and how YOU can directly benefit from knowing my hypothesis. Enjoy, and don't be afraid to comment or rebuttal me!

Spoiler: Why free will doesn't exist

As conscious beings, we are constantly reminded or informed that we are innately free. That we have the ultimate choice, the choice of life. We choose how we live life; whether by being a drug addict, a school teacher or an eco-terrorist nomad. But, what if I were to tell you that your emotions outride reasoning, or in layman's terms, biology beats logic?

Your choices are shaped by brain chemistry, wiring and past input (biology, biology, past experiences). When you decide on something, your prefrontal cortex and basal ganglia light up before you're aware of it. This indicates that your brain often makes decisions before your conscious mind becomes aware of them.

View attachment 101281

A series of experiments from 1983 investigated the relationship between brain activity and conscious awareness of a decision. This was named the Libet experiment (after Benjamin Libet). This experiment discovered that the readiness potential, or brain activity, starts about 350 milliseconds before a person reports making a conscious decision to act. To put it another way, the brain "decides" before us.

View attachment 101285

That gut feeling that you always hear about is actually your limbic system processing emotion faster than reason. Your brain is constantly predicting the next moment, even spontaneous decisions come from past neural patterns. Before you even register a potential reaction, your brain has already run the problem/action through its 3 main authorisation checks (brain chemistry, wiring and past input).

So, I hypothesise that if decisions are determined by biology and environment, we do not have true, free will. Only a mimic that is strictly influenced by pre-determined checkpoints.

Spoiler: How you can benefit

Being capable of controlling the factors that decide our decisions is exactly how we are capable of manipulating success. We control the subconscious mechanisms that tend to make our behaviour by subjectively organising our surroundings, daily habits, and interactions with other people. The consciousness of emotional bias power also encourages us to reflect and slow down, allowing reason to beat out instinct—something we can do through mindfulness, introspection, or the like. In this respect, genuine freedom perhaps does not reside in having spontaneous decisions, but in our capacity to control the circumstances deciding them.

TL;DR You can take advantage subconscious, emotional bias by improving your environment and outlook on life.

View attachment 101298

Spoiler: Signature

Thanks for reading! Rep me!

Hasta la vista, baby.
View attachment 101299

@Dean @Randomized Shame @johnvee84 @ragnarok787 @Mess

I really liked this different spin on the concept of free will. I feel as though when it is brought up in conversation it is always quite pessimistic. But here it can be used to an advantage.

I have never believed we have free will. I think the concept of free will is very tied to religion. To hold people accountable for their actions. While I think they should be, I dont think we have it regardless. Consider me a moral f*g

Someone used a pretty fun metaphor for it. It's like picking a soda. The reason why you pick the soda u picked is based on so much subconscious processing going on in the background. Advertisements, friends, etc. The only way one could have free will is someone who has unlimited choice and cannot be influenced. Which is impossible. That would be a god like mind

 

[Jelqmaxing]

If u have atleast 100 and above IQ you should understand this. No one needs an rxplanation other than kids

 

[Barbie]

Very insightful post!

 

[Mess]

Very insightful post!

Thanks!