Theory Theory on TENS Electrodes on BONE GROWTH (Lab Rats and High IQcels needed)

[Sushifart]

Recommend reading with DARK MODE.

THREAD THEME

NOW PLAYING: SHE BLINDED ME WITH SOYIENCE ​

Recently read a research article that showed promising evidence (with animal trials and human clinical trials) of an implant that basically grew bone, they specifically used it on the mandible and had success.

Quick summary regarding the research article for users who don't want to read:

They basically had some engineers make a small implant that generated electrical pulses with negative polarity and a rectangular waveform (will try and go into this with the tens device) and some other very specific parameters to activate osteoblasts and grow the mandible. Alternatively, you could also cause bone resorption with positive polarity (could have good use for nose).

Here's the results of their experiments (Phase I was from Animal Testing, and Phase II was for Clinical Trials):

Phase I


Phase II
I believe these photos were taken after 18 months of the clinical trial started and they only had the device for around a year. The image below is a radiograph of one of the subjects and they had a 7.60mm overall length increase of her mandible and 3mm increase of the length of the vertical curve between pogonion and infradentale







Here's what I think based on the osteogenesis article:

Basically, in order to mimic the implant used to grow bone, you need to have the same parameters in order to grow the mandibular bone, but with skin barrier to be considered. I have NOT bought a TENS device yet, so I am yet to see if any of these parameters can be adjusted to the directions I'm going to give below.

Required items:

A TENS electrode device

Now for the steps (these are required, so make sure your TENS device can have these adjustments):

- Adjust the frequency to around 1-4 hz (it needs to be low to mimic bone growth signals)
- Use larger electrodes so it distributes the current over a larger area
- Adjust the pulse width to a pulse width of around 1.5 microseconds (although, I personally think that the width might have to be drastically increased to deal with the skin barrier's resistance, not sure how much though)
- Adjust the amplitude/intensity to around -1 volt or -1000 millivolts (the negative is there because of negative polarity)
- Wash the area/site (in this case, chin area).
- Possibly apply some kind of electrode gel on the site (so on the mandible, probably the chin if I'm being honest, so we can test the experiment the same way). This is to decrease the skin barrier's resistance.
- Place the negative polarity end of the TENS on the site, and make sure it's adjusted for maximum current flow.
- Normal TENS sessions last around 30 minutes, but I think for our bone growth we need to last wayyyy longer (like hours it looks like, but probably just go as long as you can without hurting yourself).
- Do this DAILY, consistency is key.

Make sure you're taking shit like K2, Vitamin D3, and Calcium, since it actually might help a lot in this case.


Remember, I am not responsible for anyone f*****g themselves up, I am only responsible for myself since I will likely be attempting the experiment after I bring up the discussion here and determine specifics. If things start hurting, or burning, probably stop and adjust the parameters. In the experiment, the people did feel some kind of bouncy feeling from it, but full on pain is a stretch but likely to occur.

The Research Article:

Osteogenesis Modulation: Induction of Mandibular Bone Growth in Adults by Electrical Field for Aesthetic Purposes

A new technique in plastic surgery termed Osteogenesis Modulation is described. This technique uses a surgically implanted, battery-operated medical device to deliver customized electrical pulses to produce mandibular bone growth. This device was designed ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Sushifart]

If anyone has any specific information and experience with a TENS device, please share any safety precautions and any valuable info regarding the tool. I'll read the thread when I wake up in a few hours.

 

[Nihilus]

potentially a very good idea

 

[sexlesstosexles]

Sounds intriguing, more data is needed though.

Any other patients with a success story from this? And does it work for other bones such as zygos, do you have to adjust the parameters depending on what bone and what genetics the person has?

And you did not post how many amps

 

[sexlesstosexles]

If anyone has any specific information and experience with a TENS device, please share any safety precautions and any valuable info regarding the tool. I'll read the thread when I wake up in a few hours.

I have some experience with those, they feel weird. they feel more uncomfortable the closer you get to your face, and I heard putting them near your brain or heart is unsafe. if u put it on a muscle u can get a cramp in ur muscle (or remove a cramp from ur muscle).

 

[Sushifart]

Sounds intriguing, more data is needed though.

Any other patients with a success story from this? And does it work for other bones such as zygos, do you have to adjust the parameters depending on what bone and what genetics the person has?

And you did not post how many amps

As far as I know, facial osteogenesis is sort of new, but electrical pulses have been used before to speed up recovery in broken limbs.

For zygos, it’s likely possible. The new bone is forming because the bone is piezoelectric and responds to electrical pulses. The parameters are likely the same for every person.

For amps, I’m not quite sure yet, but I’ll talk more about it when I wake up in a few hours since phone posting sucks

 

[Sushifart]

I have some experience with those, they feel weird. they feel more uncomfortable the closer you get to your face, and I heard putting them near your brain or heart is unsafe. if u put it on a muscle u can get a cramp in ur muscle (or remove a cramp from ur muscle).

I think for muscle stimulation it needs a much higher frequency (50-100 hz), right? Correct me if I’m wrong since I haven’t bought a TENS unit yet

 

[sexlesstosexles]

I think for muscle stimulation it needs a much higher frequency (50-100 hz), right? Correct me if I’m wrong since I haven’t bought a TENS unit yet

unsure, been a while since i used it but i think muscles will be stimulated by any current but im not sure

 

[Hernan]

Recommend reading with DARK MODE.

THREAD THEME

NOW PLAYING: SHE BLINDED ME WITH SOYIENCE ​

Recently read a research article that showed promising evidence (with animal trials and human clinical trials) of an implant that basically grew bone, they specifically used it on the mandible and had success.

Quick summary regarding the research article for users who don't want to read:

They basically had some engineers make a small implant that generated electrical pulses with negative polarity and a rectangular waveform (will try and go into this with the tens device) and some other very specific parameters to activate osteoblasts and grow the mandible. Alternatively, you could also cause bone resorption with positive polarity (could have good use for nose).

Here's the results of their experiments (Phase I was from Animal Testing, and Phase II was for Clinical Trials):

Phase I
View attachment 29199

Phase II
I believe these photos were taken after 18 months of the clinical trial started and they only had the device for around a year. The image below is a radiograph of one of the subjects and they had a 7.60mm overall length increase of her mandible and 3mm increase of the length of the vertical curve between pogonion and infradentale
View attachment 29200
View attachment 29201
View attachment 29202




Here's what I think based on the osteogenesis article:

Basically, in order to mimic the implant used to grow bone, you need to have the same parameters in order to grow the mandibular bone, but with skin barrier to be considered. I have NOT bought a TENS device yet, so I am yet to see if any of these parameters can be adjusted to the directions I'm going to give below.

Required items:
View attachment 29198
A TENS electrode device

Now for the steps (these are required, so make sure your TENS device can have these adjustments):

- Adjust the frequency to around 1-4 hz (it needs to be low to mimic bone growth signals)
- Use larger electrodes so it distributes the current over a larger area
- Adjust the pulse width to a pulse width of around 1.5 microseconds (although, I personally think that the width might have to be drastically increased to deal with the skin barrier's resistance, not sure how much though)
- Adjust the amplitude/intensity to around -1 volt or -1000 millivolts (the negative is there because of negative polarity)
- Wash the area/site (in this case, chin area).
- Possibly apply some kind of electrode gel on the site (so on the mandible, probably the chin if I'm being honest, so we can test the experiment the same way). This is to decrease the skin barrier's resistance.
- Place the negative polarity end of the TENS on the site, and make sure it's adjusted for maximum current flow.
- Normal TENS sessions last around 30 minutes, but I think for our bone growth we need to last wayyyy longer (like hours it looks like, but probably just go as long as you can without hurting yourself).
- Do this DAILY, consistency is key.

Make sure you're taking shit like K2, Vitamin D3, and Calcium, since it actually might help a lot in this case.


Remember, I am not responsible for anyone f*****g themselves up, I am only responsible for myself since I will likely be attempting the experiment after I bring up the discussion here and determine specifics. If things start hurting, or burning, probably stop and adjust the parameters. In the experiment, the people did feel some kind of bouncy feeling from it, but full on pain is a stretch but likely to occur.

The Research Article:

Osteogenesis Modulation: Induction of Mandibular Bone Growth in Adults by Electrical Field for Aesthetic Purposes

A new technique in plastic surgery termed Osteogenesis Modulation is described. This technique uses a surgically implanted, battery-operated medical device to deliver customized electrical pulses to produce mandibular bone growth. This device was designed ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

hello fellow MGSV OST enjoyer

 

[Sushifart]

Sounds intriguing, more data is needed though.

Any other patients with a success story from this? And does it work for other bones such as zygos, do you have to adjust the parameters depending on what bone and what genetics the person has?

And you did not post how many amps

Quick upd bro. I honestly have zero idea what the amps would be (that's what the actual intensity/amplitude is measured in, right?).

This is the best I got in terms of ideas for now:

I also forgot to mention, the TENS units seem to use amperes as measurements for amplitude (mb), so I guess our best bet is to figure out what current to use for intensity. So far, I'm running with this:

at the lowest resistance of wet skin:

-0.001 amperes = (-1 volts )/(1000 ohms + (0.01 to 200 ohms if measuring electrodes))

at the highest resistance of wet skin:

-0.0001 amperes = (-1 volt)/(10,000 ohms)

This shit is probably beyond my scope, but doing my best here to come up with solutions to the theory. I'm also a r****d, so my scope ends here. Here's how I got my answer of -1 milliampere for the intensity/amplitude of the TENS unit:

- 1000 to 10,000 ohms is the resistance of wet skin (dry skin is a hundred times that of the minimum numb).
- There's resistance on the electrodes too, but who tf knows what your specific electrode's resistance is going to be, so I just went with just 1000 to 10,000 ohms from the skin barrier, since that's the main resistance I guess.
- Bone has resistance too, but I think we just need the pulse to reach the surface of the bone, so idk.
- The voltage is just from the og experiment.

Unknown variables are chin muscle resistance (probably measured in ohms/cm) and blood resistance as well (also measured in ohms/cm I think). Both apparently low resistance according to jewgle, but idk.

The intensity we got for now is -1 milliamperes, which is considered safe with you feeling tingles and shit when using the TENS unit, but you're still using it on your face, so I recommend taking crazy precautions when messing with a TENS unit around your skull, and probably stick to chin and shit if you end up trying. That is the lowest resistance, but at the highest resistance of wet skin (10k ohms), it's much lower, like 0.1 milliamperes, which might not be enough.

This current number is probably not correct since you need to consider resistances of blood, fat, and muscle tissue on the chin area as well, so when I find more info, I'll update this number.

Also sorry for wall of text lmao

 

[Sushifart]

And to be honest, it might just be better to mess with the amplitude and just see if you can get a comfortable setting (minimum something that just tingles or gives you some kind of bouncy feeling on your bone if possible), since I'm not really smart enough to give exact measurements for amplitude.

On top of this, I did find some TENS units for anyone curious enough to look. I used AI to find it, but unfortunately the pulse width doesn't go low enough and some of them are kind of expensive (lowest being nearly 50 USD).

Here's the list it gave me if you're curious:

1. CareTec IV 4-in-1 Combo with TENS, EMS, Interferential, & Russian Stim1: This device has four therapeutic modes and allows the use of four electrodes. It has an adjustable pulse amplitude up to 60mA and a selectable frequency up to 4150 Hz. However, the phase width is 125µS, which is higher than your requirement.
2. InTENSity Twin Stim III Digital TENS & EMS Combo Unit2: This device combines TENS & EMS therapy for optimal treatment. It has an adjustable pulse amplitude up to 105 mA, pulse rate from 1 to 150 Hz, and pulse width from 50 to 300 microseconds. But again, the pulse width is higher than your requirement.
3. BodyMed® Dual Channel Digital TENS/EMS/IF Device3: This device has an adjustable pulse amplitude up to 80 mA, pulse rate from 1-Hz-160 Hz, and pulse width of 50-260 µs for TENS and 250 µs fixed for EMS. The pulse width is still higher than your requirement.
   
   Number two is the cheapest, but still kind of pricy (nearly 50 dollars)

 

[Nihilus]

bump