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Another huge L for Trinity Christian copers.

childishkillah

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Whenever people bring up the Trinity in the New Testament, they often point to a passage in the First Letter of John, chapter 5, verses 7 to 8. It’s usually quoted like this:

"For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the Water, and the Blood; and these three agree as one."

ὅτι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ
μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῷ
οὐρανῷ ὁ πατήρ ὁ
λόγος καὶ τὸ ἅγιον πνεῦμα καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἕν εἰσιν

At first glance, this sounds like the clearest reference to the Trinity in the whole Bible. But the truth is that this text was never part of the original letter. Scholars call this addition the Comma Johanneum, which is just a fancy name for a sentence someone inserted later on.

If you look at the earliest Greek manuscripts, you can see it doesn’t belong there. For example:

Codex Sinaiticus, from the 4th century, doesn’t mention the Father, the Word, or the Holy Spirit giving witness in heaven. This section is completely missing.

Codex Vaticanus, also from the 4th century, doesn’t have it either. The place where it would be is simply blank.

In the rare Greek manuscripts where it does appear like Minuscule 221, written more than a thousand years after the original it shows up only in the margin. Someone added it by hand much later.

It’s obvious that this passage is not authentic, but was put in to support the idea of the Trinity, which was controversial and far from universally accepted in the early church. The honest thing for modern Bible publishers would be to clearly note that this sentence is a later addition, or simply remove it so people aren’t misled.

This example shows something deeper: the Christian scriptures have not been well preserved . Verses have been added, changed, or left out over the centuries. This is exactly what the Qur’an warns about. In the second chapter Al-Baqarah, verse 79.

فَوَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتَابَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَـٰذَا مِنْ عِندِ اللَّهِ لِيَشْتَرُوا بِهِ ثَمَنًا قَلِيلًا ۖ فَوَيْلٌ لَّهُم مِّمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَّهُم مِّمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ

"Woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, “This is from God,” so they can sell it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn."

The Comma Johanneum is a perfect example—people wrote it in and claimed it came from God.

As for the Trinity itself, it’s an idea that doesn’t fit with the pure monotheism taught by the prophets. Jesus never clearly said he was God, nor did he preach that God is three persons. Only HUMANS, church leaders built up complex arguments and forced this doctrine into Christian belief. But no matter how many councils or debates tried to justify it, the concept remains a human invention, not a divine truth.

In the end, this passage doesn’t prove the Trinity. Instead, it shows how far some people were willing to go to defend a teaching that was never part of the original message.
 
Read every word. The fact the Bible is not authentic in the sense that it is not its original form was already attested by the Christian high school I attended. I was told, Christian scriptures used to say that the Sun revolved around the Earth, because Mankind is at the center of all things. Scientists who discovered this not to be true, would often get executed by the Church, which at the time also functioned as the State, so they had full authority. Eventually, the Church decided to amend this in the Bible, so now it rightfully says that the Earth revolves around the Sun instead, something the Quran already stated or implied before. The fact the Bible has been changed many times overtime is one of the reasons why I do not believe in Christianity. It is, for me, akin to the hadiths - manmade, not divide. Furthermore, the Quran is unchanged; no one could amend any versus because there are thousands of people on this planet who have memorized the Quran by heart. One of my good friends, a Pakistani, is one of these people. Ethnically speaking, he is a Baloch, these people are believed to be the successors of the Bactria-Margiana Archeological Complex, a Bronze Age civilization situatie in southern Central Asia. Despite being geographically South Asian, Baloch are actually ethnically West Asian, and they have very low South Asian Hunter-Gatherer ancestry, usually 10 percent or below. In comparison, Punjabis (a cultural description, and not an ethnic description) like me score around a bit less than 25% of South Asian Hunter-Gatherer ancestry. Another person who I know who has memorized the Quran is my maternal aunt, she is married to my uncle.
 
Read every word. The fact the Bible is not authentic in the sense that it is not its original form was already attested by the Christian high school I attended. I was told, Christian scriptures used to say that the Sun revolved around the Earth, because Mankind is at the center of all things. Scientists who discovered this not to be true, would often get executed by the Church, which at the time also functioned as the State, so they had full authority. Eventually, the Church decided to amend this in the Bible, so now it rightfully says that the Earth revolves around the Sun instead, something the Quran already stated or implied before. The fact the Bible has been changed many times overtime is one of the reasons why I do not believe in Christianity. It is, for me, akin to the hadiths - manmade, not divide. Furthermore, the Quran is unchanged; no one could amend any versus because there are thousands of people on this planet who have memorized the Quran by heart. One of my good friends, a Pakistani, is one of these people. Ethnically speaking, he is a Baloch, these people are believed to be the successors of the Bactria-Margiana Archeological Complex, a Bronze Age civilization situatie in southern Central Asia. Despite being geographically South Asian, Baloch are actually ethnically West Asian, and they have very low South Asian Hunter-Gatherer ancestry, usually 10 percent or below. In comparison, Punjabis (a cultural description, and not an ethnic description) like me score around a bit less than 25% of South Asian Hunter-Gatherer ancestry. Another person who I know who has memorized the Quran is my maternal aunt, she is married to my uncle.
In fact, there's an anime that deals with the persecution of heliocentrism that came out this year. It's on Netflix, called Orb: On the Movement of the Planets. I also quite agree with your position on the hadiths; it reminds me of pseudoscientific apologetics. And I find myself in a similar position to the Ibadis on this aspect; only the hadiths that are consistent with the Quran are taken into account. By the way, in my research on the New and Old Testaments, I have discovered something very interesting: many detractors of Islam point to the pagan origins of certain traditions, places, etc., such as the Kaaba, as well as Allah, the pagan moon god. But it turns out that Eloah and Yahweh, the name of the only god Abraham, are names derived from pagan Canaanite deities. What's more, the god who inherits a city and land to himself and his followers is the same concept the Canaanites had about their pagan god Baal. Pure cagefuel, again, it is not relevant what it was, but what it is.

The Canaanite influence on Jewish identity is another argument regarding the legitimacy of Palestine, as its identity is older and influenced Jewish identity. A large part of my mother's family has the entire Quran memorized. Unfortunately, neither my brother nor I have, but today I helped my 10-year-old cousin study. (He lent me his tablet because he has Netflix and I want to watch Dexter.)
 
In fact, there's an anime that deals with the persecution of heliocentrism that came out this year. It's on Netflix, called Orb: On the Movement of the Planets. I also quite agree with your position on the hadiths; it reminds me of pseudoscientific apologetics. And I find myself in a similar position to the Ibadis on this aspect; only the hadiths that are consistent with the Quran are taken into account. By the way, in my research on the New and Old Testaments, I have discovered something very interesting: many detractors of Islam point to the pagan origins of certain traditions, places, etc., such as the Kaaba, as well as Allah, the pagan moon god. But it turns out that Eloah and Yahweh, the name of the only god Abraham, are names derived from pagan Canaanite deities. What's more, the god who inherits a city and land to himself and his followers is the same concept the Canaanites had about their pagan god Baal. Pure cagefuel, again, it is not relevant what it was, but what it is.

The Canaanite influence on Jewish identity is another argument regarding the legitimacy of Palestine, as its identity is older and influenced Jewish identity. A large part of my mother's family has the entire Quran memorized. Unfortunately, neither my brother nor I have, but today I helped my 10-year-old cousin study. (He lent me his tablet because he has Netflix and I want to watch Dexter.)
Mirin, I did not expect an elaborate response on your part, nice haha. Anyway, so that is what it's called, heliocentrism. I will make sure to give the anime a try. Right now, I am watching DBZ Super and Attack on Titan. Most interestingly, I like that you mentioned Ibadis. I did not know that is what they thought, but it is exactly what I believe. In terms of which sect I agree the most with, it isn't Shia Islam, it isn't Sunni Islam, it is actually Ibadi Islam. That makes the most sense to me. But, it is also a massively understudied sect, so it's hard to find out more about it. I don't think I'd necessarily agree with everything, but at least compared to all three, it is what I lean most to. And honestly, those kafiroid arguments do not mean anything to me. Instead, they just show me their ignorance and it is enough for me not take them seriously. Yes, regarding Canaanite influence, it is now what they to legitimitize that they are native to the region; as their DNA results show considerable Canaanite ancestry, but of course, this is much lower than the Palestinians' Canaanite levels as they are less mixed than their Jewish cousins are.
 
Mirin, I did not expect an elaborate response on your part, nice haha. Anyway, so that is what it's called, heliocentrism. I will make sure to give the anime a try. Right now, I am watching DBZ Super and Attack on Titan. Most interestingly, I like that you mentioned Ibadis. I did not know that is what they thought, but it is exactly what I believe. In terms of which sect I agree the most with, it isn't Shia Islam, it isn't Sunni Islam, it is actually Ibadi Islam. That makes the most sense to me. But, it is also a massively understudied sect, so it's hard to find out more about it. I don't think I'd necessarily agree with everything, but at least compared to all three, it is what I lean most to. And honestly, those kafiroid arguments do not mean anything to me. Instead, they just show me their ignorance and it is enough for me not take them seriously. Yes, regarding Canaanite influence, it is now what they to legitimitize that they are native to the region; as their DNA results show considerable Canaanite ancestry, but of course, this is much lower than the Palestinians' Canaanite levels as they are less mixed than their Jewish cousins are.
For now I have to DNR you, I have to watch Dexter. But here are some Orb edits.
View attachment SaveTik.co_7478335331268316417-hd.mp4
 
You tried to hang the entire Trinity on one sentence in 1 John. That is a red herring. The doctrine rests on the New Testament pattern where the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are named together in worship and mission. The baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19 gives one Name and three Persons. The Didache confirms that this is how the earliest church baptized. The benediction in 2 Corinthians 13:14 shows the same triadic structure in church life. These are public, first century practices, not medieval inventions.

The earliest Christians did not treat Jesus as only a prophet. Outsiders noted that Christians sang to Christ as to a god within decades of the apostles. Ignatius of Antioch explicitly calls Jesus “our God.” This testimony comes long before any councils. The claim that belief in the divinity of Christ was a late addition is false.

Your focus on the comma in 1 John 5 is a distraction. Even if it is removed, the core evidence remains untouched. The pillars are Matthew 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:14, John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, Acts 5, and the worship and baptismal practices of the earliest churches. These stand without the comma. That is why your argument is a red herring.

Jesus receives divine worship and titles. In John 20:28 Thomas says to Him, “My Lord and my God.” In Hebrews 1:8 the Son is addressed as “O God.” These are not fringe readings but appear in mainstream translations with scholarly notes. Jesus exercises divine prerogatives. He forgives sins on His own authority. He is appointed universal Judge. The Spirit is treated as both personal and divine. Lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God in Acts 5:3–4. These are the direct claims of the texts.

The triune pattern is built into Christian worship from the beginning. Baptism is in one Name and three Persons. The church blesses in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. This is not theory but first century practice.

The argument that the Bible is not preserved collapses under evidence. The New Testament is the best attested work of ancient literature. F. F. Bruce emphasized that nothing else from antiquity comes close to its wealth of textual evidence. Early papyri and fourth century codices align with remarkable consistency. For Luke and John, papyrus P75 and Codex Vaticanus agree in over ninety percent of variant readings. This is stability over centuries. Variants exist because thousands of manuscripts were copied, yet less than one percent of these variants are both meaningful and viable. None affect the central teachings of the faith. This is the consensus of scholars who collate the manuscripts. The church fathers quoted Scripture so extensively that the New Testament could be reconstructed from their writings alone. That is preservation in practice.

The quran enters six centuries later. The New Testament is a first century collection. The quran is seventh century. A later text cannot overrule earlier sources without circular reasoning. Historical method does not allow it.

Canonization of the quran was not smooth. Uthman enforced a standard text and ordered other codices destroyed. Companion codices did not always align with the standard. Ibn Masʿud resisted elements of the official list. Ubayy ibn Kaʿb had additional material. Reports mention verses no longer in the text, such as the stoning verse, which Islamic law still cites. Traditions describe abrogated recitations. The existence of multiple qira’at shows that the consonantal skeleton allowed different readings. This is acknowledged by Islamic sources themselves. The early transmission was not clean. It required enforcement and burning of copies to impose one version.

If you accept that this process counts as preservation, then you cannot attack Christians for having an open manuscript tradition where variants are visible rather than burned. The same standard must be applied both ways. Uthman’s actions prove that your text also faced serious variation.

Jesus never said the meme phrase “I am God, worship me.” He spoke as a first century Jew. He claimed the throne and authority of God, accepted worship, and was condemned for blasphemy. The New Testament authors call Him God and worship Him. This is how divine identity is expressed in those texts. John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, Acts 5, Matthew 28:19, and 2 Corinthians 13:14 testify directly.

Answer these without evasion.

Is God’s Word eternal or created? If eternal, then there is plurality within God that is not polytheism.
Is God’s Spirit created or uncreated? If uncreated, then the same conclusion follows.
If you claim Christians corrupted their Scriptures, can you identify the exact words, the city, the date, the people, and the manuscript lines?
If Jesus was only a prophet, why did the earliest Christians worship Him and call Him God? Why did a Roman governor record that they sang to Him “as to a god”?
If the quran was uniform, why did codices have to be burned? Why is the stoning verse still cited in Islamic law yet absent from the text? Why do your own sources describe differences in Ibn Masʿud’s and Ubayy’s mushafs?

Even without the comma in 1 John 5, the evidence for the Trinity stands. The baptismal formula, the benediction, the worship, the divine titles, and the early practices all remain.

The New Testament is preserved, public, and rooted in the first century. The earliest Christians worshiped Jesus as God. One God, Father, Son, and Spirit. This is not a late invention. It is the consistent pattern of Scripture, worship, and devotion. To overturn this, you need first century evidence. A seventh century text, a red herring, and ignoring the standardization under Uthman will not achieve it.
 
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Whenever people bring up the Trinity in the New Testament, they often point to a passage in the First Letter of John, chapter 5, verses 7 to 8. It’s usually quoted like this:

"For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the Water, and the Blood; and these three agree as one."

ὅτι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ
μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῷ
οὐρανῷ ὁ πατήρ ὁ
λόγος καὶ τὸ ἅγιον πνεῦμα καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἕν εἰσιν

At first glance, this sounds like the clearest reference to the Trinity in the whole Bible. But the truth is that this text was never part of the original letter. Scholars call this addition the Comma Johanneum, which is just a fancy name for a sentence someone inserted later on.

If you look at the earliest Greek manuscripts, you can see it doesn’t belong there. For example:

Codex Sinaiticus, from the 4th century, doesn’t mention the Father, the Word, or the Holy Spirit giving witness in heaven. This section is completely missing.

Codex Vaticanus, also from the 4th century, doesn’t have it either. The place where it would be is simply blank.

In the rare Greek manuscripts where it does appear like Minuscule 221, written more than a thousand years after the original it shows up only in the margin. Someone added it by hand much later.

It’s obvious that this passage is not authentic, but was put in to support the idea of the Trinity, which was controversial and far from universally accepted in the early church. The honest thing for modern Bible publishers would be to clearly note that this sentence is a later addition, or simply remove it so people aren’t misled.

This example shows something deeper: the Christian scriptures have not been well preserved . Verses have been added, changed, or left out over the centuries. This is exactly what the Qur’an warns about. In the second chapter Al-Baqarah, verse 79.

فَوَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتَابَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَـٰذَا مِنْ عِندِ اللَّهِ لِيَشْتَرُوا بِهِ ثَمَنًا قَلِيلًا ۖ فَوَيْلٌ لَّهُم مِّمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَّهُم مِّمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ

"Woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, “This is from God,” so they can sell it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn."

The Comma Johanneum is a perfect example—people wrote it in and claimed it came from God.

As for the Trinity itself, it’s an idea that doesn’t fit with the pure monotheism taught by the prophets. Jesus never clearly said he was God, nor did he preach that God is three persons. Only HUMANS, church leaders built up complex arguments and forced this doctrine into Christian belief. But no matter how many councils or debates tried to justify it, the concept remains a human invention, not a divine truth.

In the end, this passage doesn’t prove the Trinity. Instead, it shows how far some people were willing to go to defend a teaching that was never part of the original message.
Worthless r****d fighting a fight he was born into

n***a would never be Muslim if his daddy wasn't, and yet he thinks it is the only truth

Holy low iq

Both to Christians and Muslims
 
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Worthless r****d fighting a fight he was born into

n***a would never be Muslim if his daddy wasn't, and yet he thinks it is the only truth

Holy low iq

Both to Christians and Muslims
Lol
 
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Reactions: DNR
You tried to hang the entire Trinity on one sentence in 1 John. That is a red herring. The doctrine rests on the New Testament pattern where the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are named together in worship and mission. The baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19 gives one Name and three Persons. The Didache confirms that this is how the earliest church baptized. The benediction in 2 Corinthians 13:14 shows the same triadic structure in church life. These are public, first century practices, not medieval inventions.

The earliest Christians did not treat Jesus as only a prophet. Outsiders noted that Christians sang to Christ as to a god within decades of the apostles. Ignatius of Antioch explicitly calls Jesus “our God.” This testimony comes long before any councils. The claim that belief in the divinity of Christ was a late addition is false.

Your focus on the comma in 1 John 5 is a distraction. Even if it is removed, the core evidence remains untouched. The pillars are Matthew 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:14, John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, Acts 5, and the worship and baptismal practices of the earliest churches. These stand without the comma. That is why your argument is a red herring.

Jesus receives divine worship and titles. In John 20:28 Thomas says to Him, “My Lord and my God.” In Hebrews 1:8 the Son is addressed as “O God.” These are not fringe readings but appear in mainstream translations with scholarly notes. Jesus exercises divine prerogatives. He forgives sins on His own authority. He is appointed universal Judge. The Spirit is treated as both personal and divine. Lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God in Acts 5:3–4. These are the direct claims of the texts.

The triune pattern is built into Christian worship from the beginning. Baptism is in one Name and three Persons. The church blesses in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. This is not theory but first century practice.

The argument that the Bible is not preserved collapses under evidence. The New Testament is the best attested work of ancient literature. F. F. Bruce emphasized that nothing else from antiquity comes close to its wealth of textual evidence. Early papyri and fourth century codices align with remarkable consistency. For Luke and John, papyrus P75 and Codex Vaticanus agree in over ninety percent of variant readings. This is stability over centuries. Variants exist because thousands of manuscripts were copied, yet less than one percent of these variants are both meaningful and viable. None affect the central teachings of the faith. This is the consensus of scholars who collate the manuscripts. The church fathers quoted Scripture so extensively that the New Testament could be reconstructed from their writings alone. That is preservation in practice.

The quran enters six centuries later. The New Testament is a first century collection. The quran is seventh century. A later text cannot overrule earlier sources without circular reasoning. Historical method does not allow it.

Canonization of the quran was not smooth. Uthman enforced a standard text and ordered other codices destroyed. Companion codices did not always align with the standard. Ibn Masʿud resisted elements of the official list. Ubayy ibn Kaʿb had additional material. Reports mention verses no longer in the text, such as the stoning verse, which Islamic law still cites. Traditions describe abrogated recitations. The existence of multiple qira’at shows that the consonantal skeleton allowed different readings. This is acknowledged by Islamic sources themselves. The early transmission was not clean. It required enforcement and burning of copies to impose one version.

If you accept that this process counts as preservation, then you cannot attack Christians for having an open manuscript tradition where variants are visible rather than burned. The same standard must be applied both ways. Uthman’s actions prove that your text also faced serious variation.

Jesus never said the meme phrase “I am God, worship me.” He spoke as a first century Jew. He claimed the throne and authority of God, accepted worship, and was condemned for blasphemy. The New Testament authors call Him God and worship Him. This is how divine identity is expressed in those texts. John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, Acts 5, Matthew 28:19, and 2 Corinthians 13:14 testify directly.

Answer these without evasion.

Is God’s Word eternal or created? If eternal, then there is plurality within God that is not polytheism.
Is God’s Spirit created or uncreated? If uncreated, then the same conclusion follows.
If you claim Christians corrupted their Scriptures, can you identify the exact words, the city, the date, the people, and the manuscript lines?
If Jesus was only a prophet, why did the earliest Christians worship Him and call Him God? Why did a Roman governor record that they sang to Him “as to a god”?
If the quran was uniform, why did codices have to be burned? Why is the stoning verse still cited in Islamic law yet absent from the text? Why do your own sources describe differences in Ibn Masʿud’s and Ubayy’s mushafs?

Even without the comma in 1 John 5, the evidence for the Trinity stands. The baptismal formula, the benediction, the worship, the divine titles, and the early practices all remain.

The New Testament is preserved, public, and rooted in the first century. The earliest Christians worshiped Jesus as God. One God, Father, Son, and Spirit. This is not a late invention. It is the consistent pattern of Scripture, worship, and devotion. To overturn this, you need first century evidence. A seventh century text, a red herring, and ignoring the standardization under Uthman will not achieve it.
I'll leave you on DNR, right now I'm busy rotting
 
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You tried to hang the entire Trinity on one sentence in 1 John. That is a red herring. The doctrine rests on the New Testament pattern where the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are named together in worship and mission. The baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19 gives one Name and three Persons. The Didache confirms that this is how the earliest church baptized. The benediction in 2 Corinthians 13:14 shows the same triadic structure in church life. These are public, first century practices, not medieval inventions.
No, the point of the thread it's not hang the trinity in one false verse, is prove how the bible has been conserved. It's not red herring, is an argument by itself. And the Bible was at the service of the early Church since we know that many verses were written when the first Christian religious organizations were formed.
The earliest Christians did not treat Jesus as only a prophet. Outsiders noted that Christians sang to Christ as to a god within decades of the apostles. Ignatius of Antioch explicitly calls Jesus “our God.” This testimony comes long before any councils. The claim that belief in the divinity of Christ was a late addition is false.
I didn't say that. The idea of the Trinity and how it is explained, written, and discussed is a human creation, and even so, there were dissents in the earliest Christianity.like adoptionists who believe that Jesus was a normal man until God blessed him.
Your focus on the comma in 1 John 5 is a distraction. Even if it is removed, the core evidence remains untouched. The pillars are Matthew 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:14, John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, Acts 5, and the worship and baptismal practices of the earliest churches. These stand without the comma. That is why your argument is a red herring.
My argument is not red herring, since is an argument by itself and don't depends on other previous arguments. And like i've already said, bible was at the service of the church.

Jesus receives divine worship and titles. In John 20:28 Thomas says to Him, “My Lord and my God.” In Hebrews 1:8 the Son is addressed as “O God.” These are not fringe readings but appear in mainstream translations with scholarly notes. Jesus exercises divine prerogatives. He forgives sins on His own authority. He is appointed universal Judge. The Spirit is treated as both personal and divine. Lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God in Acts 5:3–4. These are the direct claims of the texts.

The triune pattern is built into Christian worship from the beginning. Baptism is in one Name and three Persons. The church blesses in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. This is not theory but first century practice.
John 20:28 in greek:

ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου.

The word κύριος (kýrios) was used also as landlord or teacher. The verse and context don't clarify the use of the word. As ontological way or honorary way. Like when jesus called Theos (God) to his disciples.

Acts 5:3-4 in greek:

Ἀνάνια, διὰ τί ἐπλήρωσεν ὁ Σατανᾶς τὴν καρδίαν σου ψεύσασθαί σε τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον; … οὐκ ἐψεύσω ἀνθρώποις ἀλλὰ τῷ θεῷ.

The word πνεῦμα (pneuma) also describes gods will and again the context of the verse don't clarify the use.

Mathew 28:19:

Written by a scribe named Matthew (a common practice at the time). This is widely accepted, since the use of scribes was a common and documented practice, and it's obvious from linguistic and stylistic considerations that only a well-educated scribe could have been capable of writing. And was writted half of century after Jesus ascended.

The argument that the Bible is not preserved collapses under evidence. The New Testament is the best attested work of ancient literature. F. F. Bruce emphasized that nothing else from antiquity comes close to its wealth of textual evidence. Early papyri and fourth century codices align with remarkable consistency. For Luke and John, papyrus P75 and Codex Vaticanus agree in over ninety percent of variant readings. This is stability over centuries. Variants exist because thousands of manuscripts were copied, yet less than one percent of these variants are both meaningful and viable. None affect the central teachings of the faith. This is the consensus of scholars who collate the manuscripts. The church fathers quoted Scripture so extensively that the New Testament could be reconstructed from their writings alone. That is preservation in practice.
F.F Bruce was Christian. NT is indeed well conserved since the greek copies. The Aramaic language in which Jesus gave his revelations is much more limited in declensions and grammatical structure than the Greek in which it was compiled. Furthermore, the Bible is translated into languages that don't share the slightest grammatical structure. It's practically linguistic terrorism. Furthermore, it's of little relevance that versions long after Jesus and the early communities were well preserved. They were translations of the original message in Aramaic, later translated into another language. This only leads to misunderstandings, since literal translations don't make sense in many languages. This also occurs in Hebrew with the Old Testament since the literal firts verse Genesis 1:1.
The quran enters six centuries later. The New Testament is a first century collection. The quran is seventh century. A later text cannot overrule earlier sources without circular reasoning. Historical method does not allow it.

Canonization of the quran was not smooth. Uthman enforced a standard text and ordered other codices destroyed. Companion codices did not always align with the standard. Ibn Masʿud resisted elements of the official list. Ubayy ibn Kaʿb had additional material. Reports mention verses no longer in the text, such as the stoning verse, which Islamic law still cites. Traditions describe abrogated recitations. The existence of multiple qira’at shows that the consonantal skeleton allowed different readings. This is acknowledged by Islamic sources themselves. The early transmission was not clean. It required enforcement and burning of copies to impose one version.
Would you mind providing names, references, and a linguistic analysis of what was burned and rejected? Also, how long it took after the Prophet Muhammad's death for the Quran to be fully canonized, compared to Jesus and the Church's Bible?
 
No, the point of the thread it's not hang the trinity in one false verse, is prove how the bible has been conserved. It's not red herring, is an argument by itself. And the Bible was at the service of the early Church since we know that many verses were written when the first Christian religious organizations were formed.

I didn't say that. The idea of the Trinity and how it is explained, written, and discussed is a human creation, and even so, there were dissents in the earliest Christianity.like adoptionists who believe that Jesus was a normal man until God blessed him.

My argument is not red herring, since is an argument by itself and don't depends on other previous arguments. And like i've already said, bible was at the service of the church.


John 20:28 in greek:

ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου.

The word κύριος (kýrios) was used also as landlord or teacher. The verse and context don't clarify the use of the word. As ontological way or honorary way. Like when jesus called Theos (God) to his disciples.

Acts 5:3-4 in greek:

Ἀνάνια, διὰ τί ἐπλήρωσεν ὁ Σατανᾶς τὴν καρδίαν σου ψεύσασθαί σε τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον; … οὐκ ἐψεύσω ἀνθρώποις ἀλλὰ τῷ θεῷ.

The word πνεῦμα (pneuma) also describes gods will and again the context of the verse don't clarify the use.

Mathew 28:19:

Written by a scribe named Matthew (a common practice at the time). This is widely accepted, since the use of scribes was a common and documented practice, and it's obvious from linguistic and stylistic considerations that only a well-educated scribe could have been capable of writing. And was writted half of century after Jesus ascended.


F.F Bruce was Christian. NT is indeed well conserved since the greek copies. The Aramaic language in which Jesus gave his revelations is much more limited in declensions and grammatical structure than the Greek in which it was compiled. Furthermore, the Bible is translated into languages that don't share the slightest grammatical structure. It's practically linguistic terrorism. Furthermore, it's of little relevance that versions long after Jesus and the early communities were well preserved. They were translations of the original message in Aramaic, later translated into another language. This only leads to misunderstandings, since literal translations don't make sense in many languages. This also occurs in Hebrew with the Old Testament since the literal firts verse Genesis 1:1.

Would you mind providing names, references, and a linguistic analysis of what was burned and rejected? Also, how long it took after the Prophet Muhammad's death for the Quran to be fully canonized, compared to Jesus and the Church's Bible?
Biggest CAGEFUEL I've seen since being on these forums.
NT is indeed well conserved since the greek copies.
This is so clearly chatgpt and it was glitching on you :kekw:

Why did I even waste my time with you only for you to post ai slop 😅😭

Screenshot_20250827_224911_Chrome.jpg
 
Been busy bud, you quite literally posted ai slop and it said the Bible is preserved
Saar is ai saar, not it isn't i have used google translator to translate. And the bible is well preserved for the standars of a 2000 yo book, not as absolut.
 

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