do you believe in god / religion ?

[virgile]

if so , why

 

[Br4va]

Yea I do but with my current life events idk if I can give myself the Christian label

 

[Br4va]

if so , why

Because I have faith

 

[virgile]

Because I have faith

understandable , religions are a big no for me , i can see people being faithful tho

 

[Br4va]

understandable , religions are a big no for me , i can see people being faithful tho

It takes just as much faith to not be religious as it does to be religious

 

[kaloopsia]

understandable , religions are a big no for me , i can see people being faithful tho

why?

 

[JDD8]

no

 

[virgile]

why?

too arbitrary , geographical determinism , the fact it was used as a tool of mass manipulation , i could go deep into why i don't believe in religion in the theological aspect but it would be a long ass message i'll spare you

 

[kaloopsia]

too arbitrary , geographical determinism , the fact it was used as a tool of mass manipulation , i could go deep into why i don't believe in religion in the theological aspect but it would be a long ass message i'll spare you

haha np i can get behind that wouldnt it be smarter to just subscribe to a religion though and if you die and theres nothing then fine but if theres something then at least you tried

 

[kaloopsia]

too arbitrary , geographical determinism , the fact it was used as a tool of mass manipulation , i could go deep into why i don't believe in religion in the theological aspect but it would be a long ass message i'll spare you

not trying to convert you im not religious btw

 

[Zygos]

i am an antitheist

 

[virgile]

haha np i can get behind that wouldnt it be smarter to just subscribe to a religion though and if you die and theres nothing then fine but if theres something then at least you tried

that argument doesnt work because every religion claims to be the truth , but there can only be one truth in that context , so hypothetically i could chose to be religious my whole life , and because i didnt chose the right religion still end up in hell

 

[Deleted Member 134677]

if so , why

@Narcissus☀️ is my god

 

[kaloopsia]

that argument doesnt work because every religion claims to be the truth , but there can only be one truth in that context , so hypothetically i could chose to be religious my whole life , and because i didnt chose the right religion still end up in hell

yeah but better to have some chance than none just playing devils advocate though

 

[Carcinogenic]

no any of the abrahamic religions are not really my thing
im really interested about what my african ancestors worshipped before the british introduced christianity to us tho

 

[kaloopsia]

@Narcissus☀️ is my god

will you be my god?

 

[virgile]

yeah but better to have some chance than none just playing devils advocate though

i think that's kind of silly tho , i can't go against how my brain think for "chances" at a game that i don't even believe exists

 

[Narcissus☀️]

@Narcissus☀️ is my god

Ig . I'm Buddhist

 

[virgile]

no any of the abrahamic religions are not really my thing
im really interested about what my african ancestors worshipped before the british introduced christianity to us tho

personally the only religion i could see myself subscribing to is buddhism , genuinely super based principles

 

[Narcissus☀️]

will you be my god?

Oh buddy he's taken

 

[Deleted Member 134677]

will you be my god?

Yes️️

 

[Deleted Member 135225]

too arbitrary , geographical determinism , the fact it was used as a tool of mass manipulation , i could go deep into why i don't believe in religion in the theological aspect but it would be a long ass message i'll spare you

So you're saying your beliefs are shaped by where you are born? Geographical determinism? Might as well stop believing in anything at that point

 

[Carcinogenic]

personally the only religion i could see myself subscribing to is buddhism , genuinely super based principles

some of my schoolmates back in the day were buddhist truly cool, loving and humble people

 

[Br4va]

, the fact it was used as a tool of mass manipulation

I still can’t understand this

 

[virgile]

So you're saying your beliefs are shaped by where you are born? Geographical determinism? Might as well stop believing in anything at that point

yes , a vast majority of people's faiths are cultural rather than coming from a search of universal truth , they just believe in what their parents told them to believe

 

[Deleted Member 135225]

yes , a vast majority of people's faiths are cultural rather than coming from a search of universal truth , they just believe in what their parents told them to believe

How is that a reason not to believe in religion?

 

[virgile]

How is that a reason not to believe in religion?

because it shows how religion is more about cultural transimission than empirical truth , which defies it's whole intended purpose + every religion claim to be the absolute truth , how would a fair god allow the teachings of its absolute truth to be spread only in specific regions of the world stopping others from supposed divine revelation

 

[virgile]

I still can’t understand this

there's so many examples of this bro , kings in europe using religion to justify their political position , exploitation of guilt and fear of the afterlife to submit populations to a certain way of thinking and acting , religions were also used as a justification for wars in the crusades , used to limit knowledge and the evolution of science in it's earlier days , theres so many examples bro , theocracies themselves should tell u about how it can be used to manipulate and submit populations

 

[Br4va]

there's so many examples of this bro , kings in europe using religion to justify their political position , exploitation of guilt and fear of the afterlife to submit populations to a certain way of thinking and acting , religions were also used as a justification for wars in the crusades , used to limit knowledge and the evolution of science in it's earlier days , theres so many examples bro , theocracies themselves should tell u about how it can be used to manipulate and submit populations

No like this is a reason that is ruining my belief in religion.

 

[Deleted Member 135225]

because it shows how religion is more about cultural transimission than empirical truth , which defies it's whole intended purpose + every religion claim to be the absolute truth , how would a fair god allow the teachings of its absolute truth to be spread only in specific regions of the world stopping others from supposed divine revelation

The origin of a belief and the truth of a belief are two completely separate questions. That someone in Pakistan mostly ends up Muslim and someone in Poland mostly ends up Catholic only tells you something about sociology. that's a classic genetic fallacy dismissing a claim by pointing to how someone came to hold it rather than engaging with whether it's true

Btw if "most people believe X because of where they were born, not because they searched for universal truth"is enough to disqualify a belief, that standard doesn't stay contained to religion. people's political views, moral intuitions, language, even their belief in objective moral truth or human rights are absorbed the same way, meaning through parents and culture, not derived from first-principles investigation. If cultural transmission invalidates a belief system, it invalidates basically everything humans believe, including the thought that "cultural transmission is a good reason to doubt beliefs."

I will say you are right about the mass manipulation, but that's to be expected

 

[virgile]

No like this is a reason that is ruining my belief in religion.

i won't ever shit on anyone for believing in religion tho , i think being able to be so devout towards something faith related is beautiful , i'm just not capable to

 

[saccharinesaint]

i am an antitheist

W

 

[Br4va]

i won't ever shit on anyone for believing in religion tho , i think being able to be so devout towards something faith related is beautiful , i'm just not capable to

Also you should look into it. I think eventually when you become older and want kids. Rinsing kids in a religious environment is really good. Also the baddies at churches are good

 

[Deleted Member 135225]

No like this is a reason that is ruining my belief in religion.

that's not a reason to doubt whether religion is true, it's a reason to be angry at humans who abused it. Religion is powerful and popuar, obviously power-hungry people are going to co-opt it the same way they co-opt anything with mass legitimacy.

money has funded wars, slavery, and every con in human history. That's not an argument that money isn't real or shouldn't exist, it just means that humans will weaponize anything valuable enough to be worth controlling

 

[Br4va]

that's not a reason to doubt whether religion is true, it's a reason to be angry at humans who abused it. Religion is powerful andpopuar, obviously power-hungry people are going to co-opt it the same way they co-opt anything with mass legitimacy.

But don’t you think these religious beliefs were created / edited to help the higher ups

money has funded wars, slavery, and every con in human history. That's not an argument that money isn't real or shouldn't exist, it just means that humans will weaponize anything valuable enough to be worth controlling

Fair point


Yea like if you look at chrisianities history you can not come up with the conclusion that it was man made in the 1200s

 

[virgile]

Btw if "most people believe X because of where they were born, not because they searched for universal truth"is enough to disqualify a belief, that standard doesn't stay contained to religion. people's political views, moral intuitions, language, even their belief in objective moral truth or human rights are absorbed the same way, meaning through parents and culture, not derived from first-principles investigation. If cultural transmission invalidates a belief system, it invalidates basically everything humans believe, including the thought that "cultural transmission is a good reason to doubt beliefs."

i don't like this argument because you are comparing self correcting systems to a dogmatic system , religion is not in the same category as political views or moral intuitions or language , we are all products of our environment and upbringing but the things you named are testable AND self correcting , religion claims to be absolute its completely different

 

[Deleted Member 135225]

But don’t you think these religious beliefs were created / edited to help the higher ups

which higher-ups, which edits, which text, which century? Because the actual textual history of many different manuscripts is extremely well documented (thousands of manuscripts, cross-checked across regions that had no contact with each other). That would be a lot of work for a random medieval king just to control a population. Yes some holy books have been tampered with, but once again, my last argument talks about this

 

[virgile]

But don’t you think these religious beliefs were created / edited to help the higher ups

they weren't created for malicious intents , but they became tools for malicious intents

 

[Br4va]

they weren't created for malicious intents , but they became tools for malicious intents

You are convincing me

 

[virgile]

You are convincing me

don't see this as me trying to convince you of anything , we're just having a conversation

 

[Br4va]

don't see this as me trying to convince you of anything , we're just having a conversation

Yea. I am more leaning towards that side tho now.

 

[Deleted Member 135225]

i don't like this argument because you are comparing self correcting systems to a dogmatic system , religion is not in the same category as political views or moral intuitions or language , we are all products of our environment and upbringing but the things you named are testable AND self correcting , religion claims to be absolute its completely different

That's a fair distinction in principle, but you switched arguments. Your point was "most believers got their faith from their environment, not independent inquiry." That's about the origin of the belief, and it applies whether or not the system later self-corrects. A kid raised into a rigid ideology and a kid raised into a flexible one both absorbed it culturally first, self-correction afterward doesn't change that.

Also, religion is revised constantly (geocentrism, slavery, usury, religious freedom all got reversed by religious institutions themselves). And "testable and self-correcting" oversells science and morality, science rests on unfalsifiable axioms (induction works, logic holds, etc.) and most people hold basic moral claims like "murder is wrong" as absolutes, not provisional hypotheses. If "claims to be absolute" disqualifies religion, it disqualifies moral realism too

So is the real objection "culturally transmitted" (doesn't work, same for everything) or "dogmatic" (not actually true of religion generally, and true of plenty of things you're applying it to)? you have to pick one

just to make sure the tone is landing right, i'm not getting riled up, its just a debate

 

[Venus]

No
Antitheist mostly

 

[Deleted Member 135225]

Yea. I am more leaning towards that side tho now.

being convinced this fast by one side of a comment-thread debate means you hadn't looked into this much before.
This is a topic theologians, philosophers, and historians have argued over for literally thousands of years
You can't make an opinion on such an intricate subject when you don't even have surface-level knowledge
Not trying to talk you out of being convinced because I don't really care, just don't let a tiny comment thread decide your opinion even though you haven't yet looked into 0.1% of theology (this goes for any subject really)

 

[virgile]

That's a fair distinction in principle, but you switched arguments. Your point was "most believers got their faith from their environment, not independent inquiry." That's about the origin of the belief, and it applies whether or not the system later self-corrects. A kid raised into a rigid ideology and a kid raised into a flexible one both absorbed it culturally first, self-correction afterward doesn't change that.

Also, religion is revised constantly (geocentrism, slavery, usury, religious freedom all got reversed by religious institutions themselves). And "testable and self-correcting" oversells science and morality, science rests on unfalsifiable axioms (induction works, logic holds, etc.) and most people hold basic moral claims like "murder is wrong" as absolutes, not provisional hypotheses. If "claims to be absolute" disqualifies religion, it disqualifies moral realism too

So is the real objection "culturally transmitted" (doesn't work, same for everything) or "dogmatic" (not actually true of religion generally, and true of plenty of things you're applying it to)? you have to pick one

just to make sure the tone is landing right, i'm not getting riled up, its just a debate

no worries we're just having a convo , i'm gonna go eat i'll answer you later

 

[Br4va]

being convinced this fast by one side of a comment-thread debate means you hadn't looked into this much before.
This is a topic theologians, philosophers, and historians have argued over for literally thousands of years
You can't make an opinion on such an intricate subject when you don't even have surface-level knowledge
Not trying to talk you out of being convinced because I don't really care, just don't let a tiny comment thread decide your opinion even though you haven't yet looked into 0.1% of theology (this goes for any subject really)

No you are right

I just didn’t have any strong evidence because I always knew that if you know Christian history you can’t come up with a conclusion that Christianity is man made for propaganda. But I wa just confused why it happens

 

[livingheaven08]

no i dont believe that theres a god out there n even if god existed he doesnt deserve to be worshipped.

 

[Deleted Member 135225]

if god existed he doesnt deserve to be worshipped.

curious why you say this, can you tell

 

[livingheaven08]

curious why you say this, can you tell

cuz if he existed hes evil af lol, kids r being killed in wars n r***d but all he does is watching over at the same time god would get angrylhappy depending on what youre doing which doesnt make sense cuz happiness n angriness r all humans traits n god is supposed to be higher than us so thats why i dont believe that god exists.

 

[Pentatonic]

There must be source