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I have yet to read a single convincing argument for moral realism (pt2)

vespertine said:
what contradiction specifically? pretty sure my views have been consistent. morals are mind dependent and reflect human evolution, and thats enough for ethics to guide my actions. we can act as though things are objectively true because its useful, not because they actually are true.
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But to measure objective truth you must accept that subjective truth is real.
 
yo i accidentally just burnt my fries now theyre like rock solid
 
vespertine said:
but the analogy with logic still stands. logical contradictions are impossible by definition. a world where suffering exists and yet nothing is objectively wrong isn't contradictory. moral facts aren't necessary truths like 2+2=4 or the speed of light.

"suffering is real" is a different claim than "suffering is bad." the word ought is doing a lot of work here. moral realism needs an account of why "is" generates "ought".
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Tbh I agree with you that murder is wrong is not a given moral fact. I don’t really belive that human morality comes from empathy. I think it comes more from self interest, because people act morally when it benefits them and those morals disappear when they don’t. Like the reason humans decided not to just go around killing each other isn’t because we all suddenly cared about one another. It’s because if murder is socially unacceptable and everyone agrees on that, then I’m safe too. If I don’t kill you, you don’t kill me and if someone does break that rule society punishes them
Like it’s less about some moral coming from feelings like empathy and more about creating a system where everyone benefits from following the same rules. So we don’t steal because we don’t want to be stolen from and we don’t murder because we don’t want to be murdered or we don’t randomly hurt people because we don’t want people randomly hurting us
Hence why through out history “murder is wrong” didn’t always apply to all humans. Back in 1940s it was seen as morally correct to kill jews (whether this really happened or not) because everyone else saw a benefit in it. So if murder is wrong was actually a given moral fact that humans naturally believe in, stuff like this shoud’ve never happened
 
Huntergirl said:
Tbh I agree with you that murder is wrong is not a given moral fact. I don’t really belive that human morality comes from empathy. I think it comes more from self interest, because people act morally when it benefits them and those morals disappear when they don’t. Like the reason humans decided not to just go around killing each other isn’t because we all suddenly cared about one another. It’s because if murder is socially unacceptable and everyone agrees on that, then I’m safe too. If I don’t kill you, you don’t kill me and if someone does break that rule society punishes them
Like it’s less about some moral coming from feelings like empathy and more about creating a system where everyone benefits from following the same rules. So we don’t steal because we don’t want to be stolen from and we don’t murder because we don’t want to be murdered or we don’t randomly hurt people because we don’t want people randomly hurting us
Hence why through out history “murder is wrong” didn’t always apply to all humans. Back in 1940s it was seen as morally correct to kill jews (whether this really happened or not) because everyone else saw a benefit in it. So if murder is wrong was actually a given moral fact that humans naturally believe in, stuff like this shoud’ve never happened
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exactly its the product of human evolution and social pressures
 
I dont know n****r what i have to say is similar as everyone else’s im on my train 😁
I do believe that the idea that we, as humans, should not do ‘wrong’, if wrong is defined as murdering, stealing, or causing physical harm or violence to another, is a necessary structure that has allowed our species to perpetuate, so in other words it is an evolutionary adaptation in order for our own survival. However, our continuance cannot be defined as ‘objectively good’, or even ‘objectively bad’, so therefore our means to survival cannot be defined as ‘objectively good’, or ‘objectively bad’ either, because the idea of an objective truth is that it exists independent of human interpretation.
I haven’t rlly thought about this before but tell me what u think @vespertine
 
salafibookstorepen said:
I dont know n****r what i have to say is similar as everyone else’s im on my train 😁
I do believe that the idea that we, as humans, should not do ‘wrong’, if wrong is defined as murdering, stealing, or causing physical harm or violence to another, is a necessary structure that has allowed our species to perpetuate, so in other words it is an evolutionary adaptation in order for our own survival. However, our continuance cannot be defined as ‘objectively good’, or even ‘objectively bad’, so therefore our means to survival cannot be defined as ‘objectively good’, or ‘objectively bad’ either, because the idea of an objective truth is that it exists independent of human interpretation.
I haven’t rlly thought about this before but tell me what u think @vespertine
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thank you ni‎gga
 
Last edited:
crack a pipe
 
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