The Most Dangerous Game: An Interview with Cathy O’Brien
Cathy O’Brien is the author, with her husband Mark Phillips, of The TRANCE Formation
of America, and ACCESS DENIED For Reasons of National Security. She says that she
and her daughter Kelly were used for years as mind-controlled sex slaves for the CIA.
Her husband is Mark Phillips, who, they claim, rescued her and her daughter from this
life of abuse and deprogrammed Cathy’s mind control conditioning. For years they have
been on a crusade to educate the public about secret government mind control programs.
This interview took place in October of 2001.
TRACY: At what age did you begin to be sexually abused?
CATHY: I was sexually abused as far back as I can remember, and I recall my father
saying that he had abused me since infancy, substituting his penis for my mother’s nipple.
TRACY: Who did he say this to?
CATHY: He said this to quite a few people who were involved in incest, which was real
prominent in the area of Muskegon, Michigan, where I grew up. It was a common point
of conversation, and was what I thought was the normal way people lived.
TRACY: So everyone in the town was doing it, and talking about it?
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CATHY: Well, I don’t know about everyone, but everyone in my environment seemed
to be involved in it, and since then Muskegon has been named as a pedophile capitol.
Even the Muskegon Chronicle said that [Muskegon was] the primary place in the United
States for pedophiles, so there was an extensive exposé on that. But the area where I grew
up in was definitely predominantly full of incest and sexual abuse.
TRACY: So do you think that this had been going on for generations in that area? Is it
just, like, a culture that developed over there?
CATHY: I’m not really sure exactly how it happened, but I do know that Project
PAPERCLIP had brought over Nazi scientists that had learned that multi-generational
incest-based families would have children that were sexually abused, which would result
in a dissociative disorder that was a prime basis for mind control. So they were really
interested in that aspect of things. And in Muskegon, the local politicians were actually
sanctioning that type of activity, where there wasn’t any prosecution of the pedophiles in
the court system, like my father. He actually received immunity from prosecution for
using me in child pornography. The deal was that he would raise me according to the
government specifications, which were based on the Hitler/Himmler research into the
multi-generational incest children. So it was widely spread, widely known, and actually a
deliberate effort that was going on in the Muskegon area at that time.
TRACY: So when did the mind control programming start for you? At what age?
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CATHY: The mind control aspect began when I was about 6 years old, which was in the
early 1960s, when the local politicians were sanctioning the local Michigan mafia child
pornography rings, because they knew that any child that was sexually abused to that
extent would be suffering from this dissociative disorder that they were interested in
targeting for mind control. So they were trying to locate children like myself. And they
found some child pornography that had been made, and my father was approached at that
time by a criminal faction of our government that was interested in the proliferation of
mind control, and told that he would receive immunity from prosecution if he would sell
me into the project. So he did, and I was six years old at the time. So mind control
conditioning began from a very, very early age.
TRACY: And who is this “criminal faction of the government.” Is there a name for
them?
CATHY: I don’t know of a name, per se, for them, but the more people learn about mind
control, and the more they research what mind control entails, how it’s being used in
various aspects of our society, like the military, and Special Forces, and levels of
espionage in the capacity that I was used on the CIA’s MK-ULTRA mind control during
the Reagan/Bush administration--the more people know, the more they’re going to be
able to recognize who these perpetrators are, and what kind of controls they actually
inflict, not only on individuals like myself, but also in a mass mind control aspect that
was also taken from the Nazi Germany Hitler/Himmler research.
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TRACY: A lot of people in the conspiracy theory field have a name for this group of
people. They call them the Illuminati. People imagine them as being a secret society, or a
cabal of organized people, and I was just wondering if you’d ever heard a term like that.
CATHY: I’ve heard various terms, but people participated in different secret
organizations, and I think that’s the key to where the problem lies, is in the secrecy.
People have a right to this information, they need to know this information, and it’s
imperative that the facts regarding mind control be brought to light, and taken out of
these secret societies. Things aren’t so easily black and white. I can’t just point a finger at
one particular faction, or one particular group, because there’s good and bad in
everything, including the CIA. Not all CIA’s bad. Not all government’s bad, you know.
It’s just not that simple.
TRACY: When did you first hear the term “Project MONARCH,” and associate that
with what was happening to you?
CATHY: When I was about 9 years old was when I first heard that term, and at that time
I was being routinely taken to the Governor’s Mansion in Mackinaw Island, Michigan.
TRACY: Who was the governor at that time?
CATHY: The Governor was George Romney. That’s when I was really being
conditioned, and thrust into a more government level of mind control. He’s not a main
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perpetrator. He was one that was actively involved in mind control in the educational
system and everything. Names of course are in our book The TRANCE Formation of
America, but my focus is more on just the mind control information rather than who the
perpetrators are, because if people find out what the components of mind control are,
they’re going to be able to identify these people, and that’s going to put us a lot further
ahead, rather than information of who was involved back in the early 60s. But,
nevertheless, that was the first time I heard the term “Project MONARCH,” and I heard it
at various times. Of course, I had no capacity to really understand that, aside from the
fact that I knew that it was widespread.
TRACY: What were the methods used when you were a child to program your mind?
CATHY: I had a dissociative disorder, which is professionally defined as “the mind’s
sane defense against trauma too horrible to comprehend,” and of course sexual abuse is
too horrible to comprehend for a child. There’s no place for that in the brain. The brain
actually compartmentalizes the memory of that event so that the mind can function
normally. So I had these dissociative barriers set up in my brain, which was already
prime for conditioning, for programming, and for them to be able to put into my highly
suggestible mind, a conditioning and information that they wanted in there for a base of
future programming. So from the very outset, my whole environment was controlled. For
example, my TV was controlled, what I read was controlled, and absolutely my music
was controlled, because of the harmonic effects on the brain. The news that I received
was all controlled. So having my environment controlled to that extent about what went
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in my brain, my knowledge base was actually formed according to what they wanted. We
all form opinions, fact, and ultimately our actions based on what we know. And what we
need to know is that there has been alternate knowledge that doesn’t fit in a box, and we
have got to learn to think further, and think beyond just what we have been told, and
begin to look further and ask questions. Asking questions was something that I wasn’t
capable of under mind control. I could only accept information, only take it in. I had no
ability to creatively use it, to think to use that information, but nevertheless it was
pumped into my head at a rate that created what is termed “artificial intelligence” by
some. It’s a form of artificial intelligence that’s actually pumped into the mind, because
the brain accepts the information on a photographic level when trauma like incest occurs.
These are the kind of facts that the Hitler/Himmler research had discovered, and was
actually being built from and expanded on during my earliest years, in the course of
bringing MK-ULTRA mind control so heavily into our society.
TRACY: I’ve heard this described many times by “survivors” of this, who say that there
were levels of programming with Greek letter codes, like Alpha and Beta and Delta. Did
that happen to you?
CATHY: That is something that I am ever so vaguely familiar with, but that would be a
good question to talk to Mark about, because that is definitely not my area. That’s more
outside information rather than what I would know from the inside.
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TRACY: You said that they controlled the music you heard. What did they want you to
listen to?
CATHY: There was a lot of music going on back in those days that I have missed and
have only found since I have been recovered and deprogrammed and have been able to
choose music for myself. But the 60s freedom music I didn’t get to listen to, and any kind
of protest, or anything like that. Instead I had to listen to country music. That ultimately
was the industry that I traveled in during the Reagan/Bush administration, under the
control primarily of Senator Byrd, who was my owner in MK-ULTRA.
TRACY: When did Senator Byrd become your controller? And what was he like back
then? Because now he’s sort of a doddering old man. He’s always shaking. Was he like
that when you knew him.
CATHY: No. I’ve been familiar with him all my life, or all of my mind-controlled
existence rather. Because there’s not any “life” under mind control per se, because there’s
no capacity for free thought, no capacity for free will, or ultimately any soul expression.
So I could only robotically do the things that I was told to do, and during those years I
was exposed to numerous high-profile political perpetrators that were involved in MKULTRA. They are, of course, named in our book, The TRANCE Formation of America.
TRACY: What was the progression of controllers that you had. Was there more than one
at a time?
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CATHY: I had what is termed “handlers,” and handlers would make sure that I was in
various places at certain times, either on military or NASA installations for mind control
programming, or in and out of Washington, D.C. I traveled under the guise of the country
music industry, because it provided a means of travel in and out of the Caribbean,
Mexico, and Canada, which were primarily the areas I was used in, as well as all across
the United States. So my handler would make sure that I was in designated areas at
specific times, either for programming, or to carry out the covert operations that I was
used in during the Reagan/Bush administration.
TRACY: OK, so Senator Byrd was not the only one. Is there a difference between a
handler and an owner, or a controller?
CATHY: I had two different handlers in the course of being under absolute robotic mind
control, and my father, I’m sure, would be considered a handler as well, because once he
agreed to raise me according to government specifications, he followed their instructions
and followed what they told him to do with me, and where to take me, how to condition
me, how to control my environment, and things like that. So in essence, he was my first
handler. When MK-ULTRA came into my life, the regimentation, the systematic kind of
conditioning and abuse and programming that I received from that point on was far more
structured than the natural high suggestibility resultant from the incest and the
pornography that I was used in as a very young child. My father was approached and
told. He didn’t think to do this on his own, in other words. He was being told. So he
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became a handler. Handlers follow instructions. Owners are the ones who decide which
projects or which operations to use someone in, and in my case, that was Senator Byrd,
and that was how I ended up on a higher government level. I first met him at Mackinaw
Island, at the Governor’s mansion when I was 13 years old, and that’s when he became
my owner, which lasted throughout my victimization right up until Mark rescued me and
my daughter in 1988.
TRACY: As far as the operations that you were used in for Project MONARCH--it
started out with prostitution and pornography, right?
CATHY: Right.
TRACY: And then did it move into other areas? Were you used as a drug mule?
CATHY: Well, I think the next step that was so significant to me was the use of
occultism. At that time the local Catholic church--and again, I’m not saying that all
Catholics are involved and that they’re all bad, but there is a criminal faction within the
Catholic Church, within the Order of the Jesuits, which is the intelligence arm of the
Vatican, a part of which my family ultimately had ties into and was a further causation
for me to be victimized within the church system. But nevertheless, the Catholic Church
was heavily involved in the sexual abuse of children, which was widespread and has
definitely come to light. They’ve had to pay out on numerous child abuse cases as a
result. But the reversal of the Catholic Mass is, of course, Satanism, and being exposed to
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Satanism is definitely trauma too horrible to comprehend. Any kind of blood trauma like
that is really horrible, and that was used to further dissociate my mind, further
compartmentalize it for future programming. And that theme was used right through my
second handler. Well, really, right on through my whole victimization there was always
some aspect of occultism that came in as well. And alien themes were also a very
common trauma base. Anything that’s beyond our ability to affect or control, or
something in our minds that we perceive as too big to be able to affect like that is what
they would use to ultimately gain control. Superstition begins where knowledge leaves
off, and superstition makes a person more suggestible and easily controlled, so they
definitely used superstitious kind of themes to further program. Those were significant
trauma bases.
TRACY: Yeah, I understand from your book that there were Satanic rituals that took
place at this Catholic church. Were there Satanic rituals that took place elsewhere
throughout your life?
CATHY: Definitely, and so often they’re done more as a trauma base for mind control.
It’s even used in the military which, for example, has the occult Temple of Set, which is
supposedly more intellectually based, which is used to traumatize people. That leaves
them widely suggestible for mind control programming. It’s a very deliberate method,
and it has proliferated heavily on our military bases. And it was certainly a part of my
victimization right up until Mark rescued my daughter and me. And I say “rescued”
because I had lost my ability to even think to survive. There was nothing I could do to
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pull us out of our situation. I couldn’t think about what was happening. I was so robotic
by that time. It took someone with eyes to see and ears to hear, and a heart to care to be
able to take us out of the situation that we were in.
TRACY: You seem to be saying that these people were not religiously Satanists. They
were just using it to control people.
CATHY: Oftentimes that was the case.
TRACY: But do you think there is a spiritual aspect to this, where they actually believe
in the power of Satan, or of these other gods?
CATHY: I think there are some that believe that, but the primary mind control
programmers who use that for a theme certainly know better and know that the so-called
“Satanic power” was in the form of a stun gun and sophisticated mind control
programming [methodologies] that included harmonics, and a deliberate, systematic use
of sleep, food, and water deprivation. That was what they really knew to be the ultimate
power, and didn’t have anything to do with anything spiritual.
TRACY: There was, in your programming, a lot of imagery from Disney and other
popular children’s movies which was used. And also there was something you were
forced to participate in called “The Most Dangerous Game.” Have you seen that movie,
The Most Dangerous Game?
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CATHY: No.
TRACY: It’s this movie from the 50s about human hunting.
CATHY: I wonder if that was based on the military maneuver, or if the military
maneuver sprang from it. I’m not familiar with that movie, but I am familiar with the
military maneuver of playing “The Most Dangerous Game,” where a person is in the
woods and attempting to survive while they’re being hunted. That was the kind of trauma
that I was exposed to for programming purposes.
TRACY: I thought that it was significant when I found this out the other day: one of
Anton LaVey’s favorite places in the world was Disneyland, and his daughter, Zeena
LaVey’s favorite movie was The Most Dangerous Game.
CATHY: I think one of the strongest weapons is a scramble of fantasy and reality, kind
of along the same lines as military programming tactics. They use a video game for
military training, and they can’t tell reality from the video, so when they’re actually in a
combat situation, it’s more like they’re just playing out a video game. They lose their
ability to consciously comprehend what they’re doing, and to be able to critically analyze
it, which is really essential. And so they end up just being able to point and shoot, point
and shoot, without giving it any real thought to the magnitude of what’s actually
happening. They’ll play it out more like a video game. And oftentimes with mind control
programming, they would attempt to scramble it with a movie, hence the conditioning of
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the Disney movies and all, which were quite extensively used. But the primary one which
was used was The Wizard of Oz, because of the kind of dimensional aspects that come
into play of “over the rainbow.” We see a lot of indications that this is still going on
today.
TRACY: Do you think that the movies were written and edited specifically for the use of
mind control, or was the mind control adapted to the movies?
CATHY: That’s a good question, and I wouldn’t really know.
TRACY: When your father started participating in Project MONARCH, didn’t you say
that Gerald Ford came over to the house to give him instructions?
CATHY: Well, he was a local politician, and as his career escalated, so too did my
victimization. But then, again, I don’t know how you want to go about naming names and
the best way to put it in this particular article, so I’ll leave it up to you and your
discretion. But ultimately for names, I think I’d refer them to the book, because The
TRANCE Formation of America was written for the U.S. Congressional Select
Committee on Intelligence Oversight, and the facts that are in the book are all welldocumented, where they would be able to have a point of reference for understanding
exactly the material that was written there, probably more so than the average person on
the street. So the documentation, the absolute facts, and names are definitely in the book.
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TRACY: So you don’t want to talk about the specific people that were involved, is that
what you’re saying?
CATHY: I think that I would much rather be able to put out information on mind
control, and the people involved in it, and the reality of it, and how widespread it is, so
that people would be able to arm themselves with the knowledge and actually evolve with
this knowledge, because knowledge is our only defense against mind control. And right
now, at this point in time, it’s essential that people have this information, because it’s a
key component of what’s terrorizing America and the world today. Terrorism breeds
mind control. Mind control breeds terror, and people have got to have the information on
mind control now more than ever. It will be able to stop the sexual abuse of children, the
injustice in the courts that is perpetrated on the children, and there is so much that we’re
going to be able to do when we have the information. I’m afraid it would even sidetrack
people to say, “This person, that person is involved, or was involved then,” when they
can be seeing today who’s involved based on a strong knowledge of mind control.
Going back to one other aspect, which personally I think is so very, very important, is the
use of Satanism and everything like that, because they can’t control a soul per se. When a
mind is absolutely controlled, there’s no free thought, and if there’s no free thought,
there’s no free will. And without free will, there’s no ability to have any soul expression.
If a person doesn’t have soul expression, they can’t stand up for what they believe in,
they can’t stand up for a cause, they can’t stand up for moral values, or anything like that,
which I consider to be more related to soul. So it’s not that they can control the soul, but
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by controlling the mind, they stop the person from being able to express it. I think that
shows the magnitude of mind control, and how very important it is that people know that
our knowledge base is being altered, that this information is being suppressed, and people
are being led and misled by a deliberate use of a form of mass mind control, which is also
called “social engineering.”
TRACY: How would you identify someone who was actually being purposely controlled
to the point where they’re almost a robot. Is there some kind of telltale sign? Can you tell
if someone’s a mind-controlled slave just by looking at them, or seeing the way they act?
CATHY: I can tell it just from having been there and experienced it, and seeing how
widespread it is and where it’s used and everything. I’ve learned to recognize certain
characteristics or traits of mind control. For example, people under mind control rarely
blink. Their eyes stay wide open. And the micro-muscles in their face don’t move
properly, so they don’t have proper facial expression. They may always smile. I smiled, I
think, the whole time that I was under mind control. I had a little plastic smile plastered
on my face. My face looked waxy otherwise, and there was no smile in my eyes, there
was no twinkle, no depth to that little smile. There are certain mannerisms that can be
recognized. There’s a more rigid stance, or something that might be equated more to a
militaristic stance.
TRACY: It seems like if you were to go to a modeling school, this is what they’re trying
to teach those women to do.
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CATHY: That’s what Charm School did, and everybody that I was associated with back
then was being programmed alongside of me. It was like they were cranking us out so
that we’d pretty much look the same. You know, people that are conditioned the same
way do seem to have a certain look, or certain mannerisms about them. Politicians have a
way of looking a certain way. I’m not saying that they’re programmed. It’s just their
knowledge base and the way they’re conditioned. Attorneys might have a way that they
talk, and a way that they’re conditioned. You know, people have different projections,
and folks that have been conditioned for mind control definitely have an identifiable
projection that people need to know now more than ever. We’re being told that it’s up to
us to stay alert, and on guard, and watch out for potential terrorists, anyone who’s acting
or looking suspicious. Well, that’s not enough information. They need to release the
information on mind control so that people will know exactly what to look for, exactly
what characteristics and traits to be watching for. The more people know, the better off
we’re all going to be in this effort to stop terrorism. I’ve got some insight into what mind
control looks like.
I’ve got insight into some of the old characteristics. For instance, the stun gun was one
used so predominantly, and a stun gun leaves electric prod marks that are two inches
apart. It will actually leave moles, or raised places that turn into moles eventually.
They’re oftentimes located on the face, and those are so easily identifiable. I see people
all the time on TV, especially in pornography magazines, that have these stun gun prod
marks on them. And when we become aware of exactly what these stun gun prod marks
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mean, that opens our eyes to being able to recognize mind control around us as well. I
think that’s another essential part. But stun guns aren’t used as much today because
they’ve moved technologically ahead with harmonics and different aspects now. Stun
guns are still used, and the prod marks still show up on many people who were
conditioned, particularly during the years I was used robotically under MK-ULTRA.
TRACY: Well, they used one on JonBenet Ramsey, didn’t they? I remember the story
coming out in The Enquirer, where they finally looked at the autopsy pictures, and they
found these stun gun marks, two inches apart, just like you said, on her body.
CATHY: That’s why this information is so essential. The more people know, the more
they’re going to be able to ask questions, and they’re going to start seeing it in society all
around them, and in these murders, and deaths, and terror and different aspects that come
in to play, they’re going to be able to say, “Oh that’s what that is!,” and they’re going to
start recognizing it. They’re going to start noticing it in the music industry. It’s used
heavily in the music industry, and certain high-level entertainers have been subjected to
it. There are lawsuits that have gone on because certain entertainers are given the
harmonic equipment to use in their music, which drives their lyrics further into a person’s
head. If you think about it, people know that a song will bring them back to a time when
they fell in love, for example, or a time when they were doing this, or doing that. Songs
bring out memories because of how deep the harmonics carry into the brain. That has
been fine-tuned and refined so much now that it is an essential tool. If the information on
mind control were now released, people would realize that is what is causing people to
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take action with the lyrics that are going in their head. That’s what’s causing them to
react, and carry out a murder based on having listened to this music or that.
It’s not about free speech, and it’s not about the lyrics. It’s about harmonics, and that is
one more key ingredient, and one more aspect of society where people need to become
aware of exactly what mind control entails. Once they’re aware of it, they can critically
analyze and defend themselves against it, as well as recognize it around them so that we
know what a terrorist looks like, what mind control looks like, and who’s being abused,
what’s the devastation that sexual abuse ultimately creates, in raising suggestibility, and
how people are being manipulated, even on a mass scale, through trauma. Any time
trauma occurs, suggestibility rises. So when we have trauma, like we’ve got now, with
this horrible terror that occurred in the United States, people everywhere are so highly
suggestible at a time like this, they need to be on guard about what information is being
pumped into their heads, especially if it’s repetitious. They need to shut off their TVs,
they need to think for themselves, and there are different methods they can use to be able
to refocus themselves, and maintain their own freedom of thought at a time when the
most extensive trauma occurs. So with this information, people are actually able to
strengthen, and be far more vigilant. One of our last remaining freedoms is free thought.
TRACY: You said in your book that part of your programming was decorating your
room in red, white and blue, with American flags. Is it getting to you now that everyone
has a flag?
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CATHY: Well, absolutely, I was very patriotic, and I think patriotism is one thing that’s
separating people from each other. This isn’t about that. Terrorism isn’t about countries.
This is about individuals. This is a mind control issue, not a country issue, so if folks
want to find strength in waving a flag, it’s because they don’t know the essential point
and focus of what’s really happening, and that’s mind control. And once they realize that,
then we’re not going to have to take the strong divisions, either by race, country, religion,
or anything else, but people can unite in peace and through love, rather than having to
fight the so-called “enemy” of another country. That really isn’t what this is about at all.
So again, this is such an essential ingredient to what’s happening in society today.
Patriotism certainly isn’t the answer. It’s quite superficial. If people would just turn off
their TVs, they’d be able to find a lot more answers than they would by going out and
buying a flag.
TRACY: But hasn’t it gotten to you that when President Bush and others talk about this
war coming on, they refer to it in international terms, and they want everyone in the
world to join in this fight against terrorism? Doesn’t it seem like the ultimate end of this
could be a one-world government?
CATHY: Well, ultimately, people aren’t going to wake up in time, because this was such
an enormous trauma that absolutely has shaken people to their knees. It’s my fervent
hope that we can be able to get information out through folks like yourself who are
writing articles, and through every possible public means to get the information out on
mind control so that people are going to be able to make a positive difference in time to
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stop this effort. You’ve got a situation where criminal activity has perpetuated to this
point. The tons of covert activities that I was used in during the Reagan/Bush
administration included the CIA’s covert operation of the drug industry. And the drugs,
of course, were cocaine, primarily, as well as heroin. The poppy fields in Afghanistan
were certainly a part of my victimization, and in our book, The TRANCE Formation of
America it’s mentioned as well. But the whole Iran-Contra thing feeds into it. At one
time we were funding the war against the Soviet Union so that the Soviet Union would
topple, because they were the Evil Empire at the time. And now all of the sudden we’ve
got terrorists that have resulted from it. The negativity just continues to breed.
It’s very, very much like what’s happening in the military where they found out only 15%
of the people could shoot their so-called “enemy,” they didn’t figure that number was
high enough. They had to bypass critical analysis, and the way to do that was to get
people to not think, just to do it. Point and shoot, point and shoot, without any thought or
critical analysis of the fact that they were killing another person. The best way to do that
was to condition them through video games, the same video games that our children are
playing. I mean, they’re playing with a very, very dangerous weapon in itself that’s
teaching them to bypass critical analysis. What happens then is that programming goes
into place, where the military will point and shoot, point and shoot. And then they leave
the military, they’re turned out onto the streets, without being deprogrammed. It’s turning
our streets into a bloodbath, it’s creating extreme violence, and the children are being
conditioned into violence that we’re seeing coming out now in the school systems.
Because they’re being conditioned in exactly the same way, to take away that critical
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analysis. The whole negative aspect of everything is ultimately what is coming out onto
us now through this terrorism, and when we realize what the cause is, and can be able to
think for ourselves and critically analyze once again what’s really going on, we’re going
to realize that war and fighting is not the answer. Then people will unite through natural
attrition. They’ll unite with cause. They’ll unite with peace and love. Ultimately, that’s
the kind of world unity that I would like to see. The only way that we can achieve that is
by getting the information out on the reality of mind control, because this is absolutely a
case where the truth makes us free.
TRACY: [Getting back to your childhood], how did you function in school while all of
this was happening to you?
CATHY: I got very high grades in school. Mostly As, because when trauma occurs that’s
too horrible to comprehend, the brain automatically goes into its own mode, and it
photographically records events surrounding the trauma. For example, most people know
exactly where and what they were doing when Kennedy was assassinated. That’s an
example from that time when I was growing up that I think most people would be able to
relate to, and that’s an example of how the brain photographically records events
surrounding trauma. Since I was being traumatized all the time, I was photographically
recording what I was being taught in school. So I got excellent grades. I wasn’t able to
use that information, but I was still receiving the information. It was still being driven
into my brain.
45
TRACY: So after you graduated high school, did you go on to higher education? Did
you have a career?
CATHY: I had a couple of years of college just as I was being thrust totally into MKULTRA. When I was 18, of legal age, I was transferred to Louisiana, where I endured
extreme occult trauma for a period of three years, which left me so primed for mind
control that it was during those three years that I became absolutely robotic, and began
being used on a government level. So, from about the time I was 18 years old on, I was
used in government operations. But prior to that I went through education as far as I
could, and that included several semesters of junior college.
TRACY: Did you have career goals in mind? And since the government was using you,
were they also providing for you financially? Did you have a job?
CATHY: No, I wasn’t provided for financially. I worked different jobs, like most teens
would, but I was working three jobs at the time, just menial jobs, plus going to school.
And what this did was it kept me wore down. Sleep deprivation was necessary for the
kind of conditioning that I was going through at that time.
TRACY: And when you talk about “severe occult trauma,” were there human sacrifices
involved?
CATHY: Yes.
46
TRACY: Were you forced to participate in that?
CATHY: Was forced to see it, not participate, per se. It was a trauma base for me.
TRACY: And is Kelly your only child, as far as you know?
CATHY: Yes.
TRACY: Did they, while they were abusing you, have you on birth control?
CATHY: Oh yeah. Predominantly, yeah, but first I had Kelly. I had her during the years
that I was being traumatized so horrifically with the occultism. Kelly was born into MKULTRA on a much more sophisticated level than I had been exposed to. She was
conditioned literally from birth, and on a harmonics, high-tech level, whereas mine had
been on a sexual abuse and trauma level. And that initial upbringing that I had was the
kind of mind control that I was maintained under throughout my victimization, whereas
my daughter Kelly was almost immediately thrust into the harmonic level. I couldn’t
think to save her from it any more than I could think to save myself, and we could only
do exactly what we were told to do, both of us.
TRACY: Now, when she was being programmed, would they take her away from you?
47
CATHY: Oftentimes, and sometimes not. It depends on the trauma base. Often multigenerational incest-based families will have children who are sexually abuse, who
sexually abuse their children, and so it goes. Both my father and my brother were
sexually abused, so they sexually abused me. In my case, for whatever reason, that gene
didn’t come through to me. I can’t comprehend pedophilia. I cannot comprehend the
sexual abuse of a child. Despite my whole upbringing, having been in it, for me to think
of sexually abusing a child is just--I don’t know why people would even want to do that,
and I’m certainly not into the control thing either. My daughter’s abuse was used against
me to traumatize me. Of all the tortures, of all the traumas, of all the horrors that I saw
and witnessed and experienced throughout my victimization, any abuse, including sexual
abuse, of my daughter was the most horrible, horrible thing that I ever endured. It was
absolutely awful.
TRACY: So they never forced you to participate in it?
CATHY: There were different situations that I was forced into with Kelly. For example,
I was used in pornography throughout my victimization, from the time I was a little bitty
child right on through. But most of the kind of sexual filming that was done was covert
filming that was used for blackmail purposes. In cases like that, I am aware of several
instances where my daughter was present, and that is truly the most horrible thing that
I’ve ever experienced, and I’ve experienced a lot of awful things. But nevertheless, that
was used.
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TRACY: Was Kelly ever taken to Bohemian Grove?
CATHY: Yes. We both have been there.
TRACY: Is that like a big Satanic group meeting for people in positions of power?
CATHY: Again, this is where we separate the superstition from the hard-core facts. They
would use that theme perhaps for traumatization, but it was not the leading theme, or the
predominant theme whenever we were at the Grove. When we were taken to the Grove, it
was usually a meeting of global leaders that were actively involved in the New World
Order effort through mind control of the masses. They had the same agenda, they were
like minds, and they would come together in a place like Bohemian Grove to meet and
discuss their plans, and actually formulate them. The worst things I heard there had to do
with mass genocide rather than occultism.
TRACY: So when they’re having these meetings, and they’re talking about New World
Order policy, are those meetings separate from all the kinky sex that goes on there? Is
that recreation that takes place after the meetings?
CATHY: Well, it’s secretive there, and it’s my experience that when these people got
together, they didn’t have, like, a formal round table sit-down with ties and suits, for
Heaven’s sakes. You know, this was very informal, and they would just talk as friends
talk. Because they felt that they were in an environment that wasn’t being monitored, and
49
wasn’t being scrutinized by anyone, they felt free to do whatever they wanted. That
certainly went into areas of perversion, and a lot of cocaine use, and whatever they were
wanting to indulge in, they felt free to do.
TRACY: Have you seen Stanley Kubrick’s Eyes Wide Shut?
CATHY: Yeah, I have.
TRACY: Was that an accurate representation of one of these experiences at Bohemian
Grove?
CATHY: You know, I think the theme was taken from that, but I can’t really relate to it.
It’s not quite the same. But there are aspects of it that are probably more realistic than any
other occult movie that I’m familiar with.
TRACY: They have the Cremation of Care ceremony (at Bohemian Grove), in which
some people have accused them of sacrificing babies, by tossing them into a huge bonfire
in front of a giant owl statue. But the official story from Bohemian Grove is that they’re
actually tossing bundles of stick into the bonfire. Is that correct?
CATHY: Yeah, but that wasn’t a primary aspect of my victimization. It was part of a
threat that whatever I did I had to do as though my life depended on it, because it did.
50
And I’ve certainly seen people die. The secretiveness of the Grove and what went on
there would certainly lend itself to that kind of trauma.
TRACY: Have you ever seen babies sacrificed?
CATHY: During the horrible conditioning of those three years that I mentioned, yes.
TRACY: I’ve heard of “Mother Goddesses” who are used as breeders for these babies.
Have you ever met anyone like that?
CATHY: No, actually, that goes into, I think, the more superstitious aspect of the occult,
rather than the deliberate use of occultism for a trauma base for mind control. The level I
was used on was a White House/Pentagon level, so it was pretty extreme, pretty
regimented, whereas I think what you’re talking about there is a little more New Agey, a
little more along those lines. So I’m not as familiar with that. I’m more familiar with
genetic studies in breeding that were going on for genetic purposes, and genetic mind
control. That’s what Project MONARCH is: it’s a genetic mind control project, and it’s
part of MK-ULTRA. MK-ULTRA has different branches, and the one that I was
subjected to was a genetic mind control project. So I’m more familiar with things from
that end than I am from the aspect you mentioned. Like in my daughter’s case, she was
born for espionage. Her father was mind-controlled, and he was used in mercenary
paramilitary operations in very murderous aspects. They wanted to breed those abilities
in with mine, which were more on a message-delivering aspect and a sexual aspect. And
51
so they combined two multi-generational mind control slaves for creating Kelly. That’s
all I know. That’s the kind of thing that I was exposed to, was that kind of deliberate
effort. I certainly wouldn’t have chosen to have anything to do with Wayne Cox under
any circumstances, especially to father my child.
TRACY: So you were used as kind of a storage server for information, and a courier,
correct?
CATHY: Very much so, and used primarily in the drug industry. The cocaine operations
were so heavy back in those days, in the Caribbean and Mexico. I was used on the
groundwork of NAFTA with then-President De la Madrid and Vice-President Salinas,
and it had been determined even back then, when I was being used, that Salinas was
going to go into the office of President of Mexico when George Bush went into the office
of President of the United States. So it was already pre-determined. Both of them were in
the Vice-Presidential capacity, and yet both of them had more power and influence than
the figurehead presidents of both our countries. I saw some extreme inner workings in the
groundwork for NAFTA. I was used in the capacity of funding the New World Order
efforts [via] the CIA’s involvement in the cocaine industry.
TRACY: Did you have any prior knowledge that George Bush, Jr. was going to be
President?
52
CATHY: I knew that he was being conditioned. I had seen him. I knew he was definitely
jostling for that. But I didn’t know that aspect of it. I did hear conversations about Bill
Clinton, but, you know, I’d refer people to the book on something like that. I wouldn’t
want to be quoted on that.
TRACY: Do you still believe that you have an immunity to all sexually transmitted
diseases--that they gave this to you as part of your training?
CATHY: I have no reason not to believe that.
TRACY: Do you think that “They,” the bad guys, have purposely bred AIDS, and other
diseases like that, or have allowed them to proliferate while they possess the antidote or
the vaccine.
CATHY: Mass genocide has been discussed, and has certainly come to pass and been
perpetrated. AIDS is something that I have cause to suspect in that regard, based on the
operations I was used for in Haiti, and based on conversations that I heard. Also, consider
the fact that they did not use any kind of sexual protection whatsoever in the sexual
activities that I was engaged in with these various government leaders, even coming right
back from Haiti where AIDS was already rampant. Also, there was quite a bit of
confidence surrounding that fact, and it was a known fact--that since I was used on a
White House/Pentagon level, and was what they termed a “Presidential Model,” they
would not get AIDS from me, because I was “clean.” That was the term used.
53
TRACY: Are these perpetrators primarily white and male? I know that you had
experience with Hillary Clinton, and some other wives of prominent people. Do you
think that there are a lot of women that are involved in this as well, on a hierarchical
level?
CATHY: I knew several that were heavily involved. I think the mindset or propensity
towards the New World Order effort through mind control of the masses spans all
genders, race, countries, and nationalities. I don’t see any differentiation except mindset,
and there are people that believe the only way to world peace is through mind control of
the masses. How can we have world peace that way, if there’s no soul expression? That’s
a different definition of peace, which I guess would require peace-keeping forces rather
than the power of love.
TRACY: If they’re talking about mass genocide, though, then there must
be certain groups of people that they wish to eliminate. I mean, did you not get that
impression?
CATHY: Especially from a genetic aspect, yes, they wanted what they termed the “less
desirables” to be eliminated from the planet, because the planet was what they considered
to be too overpopulated anyway. I’ve definitely heard conversations to that effect, and the
predictions that I heard I’ve seen come about, particularly through the spread of AIDS.
54
TRACY: But there are elite strains within all of the races that you are aware of that were
considered worthy by them to preserve, and it’s just the lower elements of all the races
that they want to eliminate. Is that correct?
CATHY: I would say so to a large degree, but mostly it’s the ones in the so-called
“secret societies,” the people who were of like mind that they considered to be the most
evolved and the ones who should survive.
TRACY: Were you ever abused within the confines of a Masonic lodge?
CATHY: Oh yes. Oh yes! Even in my younger years, because my mother’s father ran a
Masonic lodge in Michigan. I mean, it was definitely sprinkled throughout my
victimization. But then again, I wouldn’t say all Masons are bad, but I don’t think all
Masons know what the ultimate secrets are.
TRACY: But you think this New World Order philosophy might be one of the ultimate
secrets of Masonic teachings.
CATHY: I believe it’s an ultimate goal of many of them that are involved in Masonic
aspects. But then again, any time you’ve got secret societies, and information is
suppressed, they operate on the philosophy that secret knowledge equals power, and if
they’ve got secret knowledge, they can exercise it over other people. That’s exactly
55
what’s been happening for way too long, and that’s why I say, “It’s truth that sets us
free.” It’s time to start telling their secrets. It’s time for the truth to be brought to light so
that everyone can see exactly what’s going on, and as far as I’m concerned, that’s the
only way we’re going to be able to effectively combat terrorism.
TRACY: Well, the thing is that people have very short attention spans, and they don’t
have to be programmed to be that way. They are that way naturally. So how do you distill
a message so that it’s actually useful for people who hear it? I mean, if they see a “60
Minutes” piece on this, is that going to do it? Because in mind control, they distill a
message down to a phrase or a couple of words, and they repeat that over and over again
until people have it burned into their brains. Is there some way of distilling this
information so that people will finally catch on?
CATHY: They need to expand their thoughts, and ask questions, and think outside the
box. They’ve been limited in their thinking for so long, and it’s like, people have gotten
lazy mentally. It’s time that we expand our thinking. When I recovered from mind
control, what I had experienced was a more exaggerated scale of what everyone goes
through. I mean, there is a form of mind control on a mass scale. There is a social
engineering. There is a conditioning that has taken place. That, combined with the
deliberate militaristic aspect, through things like video games, and stuff, is further
conditioning society: the suppression of pertinent information, the suppression of
technology, the suppression even of a fact like harmonics. Once people know about that,
then we can be more vigilant to protect our free thought, instead of just having things
56
driven into our heads through TV and through music. This is pertinent information. Why
should it be a National Security secret? Why are the components of mind control being
kept secret under the guise of National Security? It’s National Security that’s threatening
the security of our nation, threatening the security of our free thought, and threatening the
security of humanity as we know it. People have a right to this information, and it’s time
that it came out. When people realize that mind control is a reality, they’re going to begin
to ask questions. Asking questions is the key for them to start thinking out of the box,
thinking beyond what they’ve been told, thinking beyond the little bits and pieces that
they’ve been allowed to know. They’re going to be able to stop and think, “Hey, maybe
this isn’t exactly new information. Maybe this is just a little tidbit they’re feeding us.
Now what more is there?”
And once people begin to ask the questions, their eyes are open, and they start looking
further. So it’s not that we can give them a pat answer. As a matter of fact, when Mark
and I taught mental health back in early 90s on how to help people recover from sexual
abuse, from trauma, from PTSD, and all these dissociative disorders, we were telling
them that they needed to teach people how to think, not what to think. For example, when
people were recovering memories of incest or sexual abuse, they remembered that they
had sexual abuse in their past, but because of the kind of compartmentalization that
happens, they weren’t really sure, and they were trying to remember exactly what
happened. Since the mind is so suggestible, if the therapist asks at that time, “Was that
Daddy who did that to you?,” then it becomes Daddy in their minds. So that’s telling
them what to think, whereas teaching them how to think is to teach them to question, and
57
say “Who was that? What were the circumstances?” Even details like, “What were you
wearing?” Little details like that will bring the truth forward, instead of being told what to
think.
And that’s what’s happening in society, even now, with the terrorist attacks. As that
happens, we’re told over and over again what to think, and we need to be told how to
think. And how to think is to begin to ask questions, and look further than just what we’re
told--to be able to learn how our brain actually works, and what the limitations are. It’s
essential that people shut off their TVs and look into mind control, and arm themselves
with that knowledge. Once they have that, they’re on the road to freedom.
TRACY: Now, in your memories of your past, do you have screen memories in addition
to real memories? How can you tell them apart?
CATHY: The only way to recover memory that’s too horrible to comprehend is to make
it comprehensible. And the only way to make it comprehensible is to take it from the
emotional to the logical. The way to do that is by writing. So I wrote out my memories.
And what that does is it switches the information into the logic part of the brain, because
it takes the logic part of the brain to move a pen. So the information’s becoming logical
as it’s being written. Once it’s logical, it becomes comprehensible. Once it’s consciously
comprehensible, then a person begins to recover. I functioned under mind control on a
subconscious level all those years, and I had no ability to consciously think, or to reason.
I had no conscious awareness at all until I recovered the memory. And when I began to
58
recover by using the logic part of my brain, and making the incomprehensible
comprehensible, I gained a conscious awareness. With that conscious awareness came the
ability to ask questions, and to critically analyze, and to look at things.
It’s real easy to separate a screen memory from a real memory under conditions like that.
You ask yourself: “What happened before?” “Well, I sat in front of the TV, or a sat in
front of a movie, you know, or this equipment was being used.” Those kinds of things are
really easy to remember, so ultimately, when I deprogrammed, I deprogrammed the
program first, and that made it easy to separate the reality from what was being pumped
into my head. It’s a very deliberate process as a recovery mechanism from the kind of
robotic mind control that I had. In the first years that Mark and I were publicly speaking,
back in the early 90s, on the issue of mind control, since I was one of the very first to
have recovered, we were actually teaching mental health professionals how to help the
numerous survivors that they were seeing recover as well. And one of the first steps was
to be able to separate the screen memory, to be able to teach them how to think rather
than what to think. In those days false memory was proliferating rapidly, because mental
health was ignorant and did not know what they were dealing with. The information on
mind control had been suppressed from mental health from the earliest years, back when
Dr. Ewen Cameron, who’s the founder of our A.P.A., was actually working on mind
control for the CIA in Montreal, Canada.
Of course, Dr. Cameron and the CIA were found guilty of their involvement in that, and
actually had to pay some of their Canadians victims in a lawsuit, which, if you’re
59
interested, is in a movie that they released. It’s brilliant. It’s a documentary that they
released in Canada called The Sleep Room. It was banned in the United States, but they
are aware in Canada of what went on because of Dr. Cameron. And Dr. Cameron is the
one who suppressed the information initially from mental health to the point where they
had to relearn. They’ve since even had to rename the dissociative disorder that is a basis
for mind control from Multiple Personality Disorder, which is a misnomer, to
Dissociative Identity Disorder. This is a much more well-defined term, not only for what
the disorder is, but for how to recover from it. Whereas with Multiple Personality
Disorder, they get all kinds of demonic possessions, and this and that, and all kinds of
superstitions sprinkled in it so heavily that they’ve had extreme difficulty. I don’t know
of any cases that have recovered from the superstitious aspect, whereas with what’s
happening now, people are actually beginning to recover. So I am one of the very, very
first, and I am extremely fortunate to have survived, to have been able to recover, and to
be able to help bring this information to light.
TRACY: So you didn’t have multiple personalities, is that correct?
CATHY: Well, they termed it that at one time, but it’s actually a dissociative disorder
that creates a compartmentalization of memory in the brain. So I didn’t have multiple
personalities. I had the essence of who I am, or my personality, that was shattered into so
many different parts, so that, for example, the part where my father would sexually abuse
me--that part of my mind would compartmentalize around that event so that the rest of
my mind could function normally. I couldn’t think to bring to mind his sexual abuse until
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it happened again. And when it happened again, the part of my brain that knew how to
deal with it would automatically open. Our brains are really phenomenal. That part of my
brain would open to deal with that trauma again and again, and that trauma is all that part
of my brain knew. That’s not a personality. That’s not a whole person there. That’s a
little tiny fragment of my brain and my own persona that was reserved just for my father,
and knew only my father’s abuse. It was like going through existence with blinders on. I
only knew certain politicians, I only knew certain sexual activities, I only knew to be
involved in drug industry. But whatever activities I was forced to carry out, I couldn’t
think to bring it to mind to discuss it with anybody. I could only do exactly what I was
told to do. And that wasn’t various personalities, see, that’s just simply
compartmentalized memory.
TRACY: Yeah, I understand. You didn’t walk around thinking that your name was Mary
or Helen, or thinking you were a little girl.
CATHY: Exactly, exactly. See what a difference that makes for recovery? If someone’s
going through the role play of being this person, that person, and all, how are they going
to recover? That’s not reality. That’s the misconception right there. Another really
important point is: I was used in a sexual capacity in later years, during the Reagan/Bush
administration, because my sexuality had been so heightened from the early sexual abuse.
It had actually gone into an area of eating, or drinking, or survival, because of my father’s
substituting his penis for my mother’s nipple. That goes in on the strongest of levels of
just basic survival. That’s where my sexuality went into a heightened mode, and it just
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stayed heightened all my life. Whether mind control is used on a sexually abused child or
not, their sexuality is heightened.
TRACY: I hope this isn’t too personal a question, but I was kind of curious about it
myself. You said that there was some kind of carving, some kind of scar that they put on
your genital region. What was it?
CATHY: It was a vaginal mutilation carving that was used in pornography. It was used
to fulfill some perversions, or whatever. It’s something that doesn’t go away, and it was
something that was done to my vagina where it looks like there is a face that actually
comes out. It’s hideous, and I remember exactly when it happened, how it happened, and
how it was carved. I wasn’t given any drugs, or any kind of anesthetic or anything, so I
certainly was acutely aware of it, and it was painful. But it’s appearance has a function,
which I don’t get (but then again, I don’t get a lot of these perversions), and then it also
has some physical aspect that can give men pleasure in a little bit different way. So they
knew what they were doing, and I’m not the only one that’s been carved that way, but I
don’t know of anyone that’s survived who has it. It’s definitely evidence that doesn’t go
away. Kind of like stun gun prod marks, you know, it just is there.
TRACY: So you said that it gives the man pleasure. Is this, like, the same concept as
ribbed condoms?
CATHY: Yeah, maybe.
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TRACY: Was it distinctive? Would you say that if a person found a pornographic picture
of you that was taken, you could match it up?
CATHY: Oh yeah, absolutely. No question about it.
TRACY: You said that Larry Flynt had some pictures of you taken in Hustler. Do you
know when those were taken, and when they were published?
CATHY: Yeah, different ones in different ways for different purposes. I’m not really
sure what all magazines were used, but there were a couple that do stand out more.
TRACY: But you wouldn’t know what to tell me if I were to go through some back
issues to try to find you in there, or anything?
CATHY: You know, on some of them, yeah. He’s got a few that are more underground
than Hustler.
TRACY: How old is Kelly now?
CATHY: 21 [In 2001].
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TRACY: So if she’s been locked up in a juvenile institution, shouldn’t she be getting out
about now?
CATHY: She was turned out when she was 18. She is on her own to a degree, but Kelly
still needs rehabilitation desperately for the high-level mind control that she was exposed
to. In essence the key that locked the door to her mind needs to be used to unlock it.
When I recovered my memory, and remembered the trauma, that actually took down the
barriers in my brain, which gave me access to those parts of my brain. Instead of
compartmentalization, I now have free-flow full access to all of my mind. In Kelly’s
case, her compartments were created through harmonic vibration, and they need to be
harmonically vibrated back down. So she’s still got the compartments in her brain that
can be accessed, and she still is definitely accessible. She has an extremely difficult time
just getting by, particularly with this administration that’s in right now. She’s having a
really hard time.
TRACY: Wasn’t she forbidden while she was in the juvenile facility from using the
word “George Bush”?
CATHY: Yes, it’s a matter of court record. She and I were both forbidden to say the
words “George Bush,” “Wizard of Oz,” and “mind control.” That’s pretty weird, in itself,
that they would put that in a court record. Kelly’s court case--there wasn’t anything legal
about it. So much so that a District Attorney actually went before the court on Kelly’s
and my behalf, and told the judge that he was in violation of this law, and this law, and
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this law. And the judge at that time said, “Laws do not apply in this case for Reasons of
National Security.”
TRACY: And reasons for that were never given, right?
CATHY: No, but it’s rare. Usually those kind of statements are made behind closed
doors, rarely as a matter of public record in court. But the fact that the National Security
Act has been invoked in my daughter’s case is pretty significant in itself. It’s pretty
validating to the magnitude of what she went through. So the gross injustices that she
went through while in the custody of the State of Tennessee are to me just as horrific and
horrible as what she endured under mind control. It’s awful what that child has been
through. Just absolutely horrible.
TRACY: What was she being institutionalized for?
CATHY: This is kind of complex, but brainwashing was one of the first forms of mind
control used on an espionage level, and like I said, Kelly had been born and bred for an
espionage level from the onset. In the old days they used to give the old cyanide pill, that
you may have heard about, which they would take before being tortured, so that they
could die with their secrets instead of revealing them. That pill has been replaced with
programming. The subconscious mind can be manipulated to the point where it controls
the areas of breathing and the respiratory area, and blood flow, so that even military
Special Forces, for example, can take a bullet and not bleed. So they figured that they
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didn’t need to have that cyanide pill anymore. Why not just program espionage agents
with an automatic circulatory or respiratory failure? In Kelly’s case, hers is respiratory
failure, activated as soon as she begins to remember her past. When we were in Alaska,
after Mark rescued Kelly and me, we felt safe for the first time in our whole lives. We
knew love for the first time. It was such a dramatic difference. I really thought I had died
and gone to Heaven. I believe that in one of those near-death experiences that I had
actually crossed over, and I thought that Kelly and I had died, but of course we hadn’t.
Since we felt safe, we began to remember, and the memories started flashing, and they
were intrusive, and bits and pieces of what had happened started coming forward. Up
until that time, I was completely amnesiac about my past. I didn’t know where I had been
for ten years. I didn’t know what had happened. I had absolutely no memory of it
whatsoever. When Mark first rescued me, I really thought that I was 24 years old. It was
a trip finding out I was 30.
TRACY: They had lied to you about your age?
CATHY: I had no concept of time. Under mind control, since there’s no ability to
maintain a continuity of thought or a conscious awareness, there’s no concept of time.
And with no concept of time, there’s no ability to know how old you are. And they
actually did some studies on aging based on that, because if a person doesn’t know how
they’re supposed to act their age, or how they’re supposed to look, they don’t, and people
don’t age properly. Oftentimes people under mind control are age-inappropriate. Their
age doesn’t show in their face. They can maintain a youthful look way beyond what’s
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normal. So I had no concept of time. I’ve caught up with that since those days, now that
I’m aware. But since we felt safe, we began remembering. When we began remembering,
Kelly went into respiratory failure. When she went into that programmed respiratory
failure, she was taken to Humana Hospital in Anchorage, Alaska. She wasn’t responding
to any kind of conventional medication. That’s the first time that I heard the term
“Multiple Personality Disorder.” That’s the first time I heard a term applied to what we
had experienced. The psychiatrist that was treating her initially diagnosed her with
Multiple Personality Disorder, with active mind control programming.
TRACY: That’s a diagnosis?
CATHY: That’s a diagnosis. And that diagnosis was rejected by the State of Tennessee
when she was thrust into their custody. When they took custody of her, they would not
accept diagnoses from outside the state, and of course the cover-up ensued from there.
But Kelly ended up in the custody of the State of Tennessee because of a Federal
program, the Violent Crimes Claims Commission, that was actually overseen out of
Washington, D.C. It was a catch net, in essence, and Kelly was scooped up immediately,
and thrust into the Tennessee system. Once it was determined in Alaska what she
suffered from, that diagnosis was picked up, and the State of Tennessee took custody of
her through illegal and immoral means. And she was raised in their custody, then, right
up until she was 18 years old, and of legal age, and it left her in quite a mentally
devastated condition. But Kelly does know who and what Mark and I are up against. She
has had enough memory to be aware of that, which has given her a very deep and
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profound insight into life, into reality, into what’s happening these days. In so many ways
she’s a wise person, yet at the same time her ongoing need for qualified rehabilitation
leaves her unable to hold down a job, for example, or to become a contributing part of
society like she would like to be. She’s still not free to be what she wants. She doesn’t
have the ability to have the soul expression to do exactly what she would choose.
TRACY: Is she not accepting help from you and Mark?
CATHY: She and I are very, very close, and we’ve had a lot of conversations since she’s
been out of custody and everything. But there’s extreme limitations on it because when
she sees me, when we’re together, when we talk about anything, it triggers memories.
Because she feels safe and loved, it automatically starts to flood her mind. When it floods
her mind, she goes into respiratory failure. And that’s a reality that she and I live with to
date, which has got to be one of the most cruel things that any parent and child could ever
endure. She knows that, like truth, I’m not going to go away. I’m not going to abandon
her needs in any way whatsoever, and Mark and I are totally dedicated to getting the
information out on mind control. Instead of operating out of desire for vengeance on the
perpetrators, or wanting to expose their political influence and all so much, it’s more out
of love for humanity, love for Kelly, love for the children that motivates us. Love is the
most powerful force in the universe, and it’s certainly what drives Mark and I today.
Hate, vengeance--those kind of negativities are immobilizing, and they actually hinder
progress. There isn’t time for that. It’s essential to get the information out for Kelly’s
sake and for everyone’s sake.
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TRACY: Now, is there significance in the name “Kelly,” because I know that Brice
Taylor’s daughter is named “Kelly,” and there are some others also. It’s been said that
slaves were told to name their daughters “Kelly” for ease in tracking, or something like
that. That’s what I’ve heard. What’s your answer?
CATHY: I don’t know, it’s something about--what’s it called: “Kiley,” the messenger of
death, or something? There’s some negative aspect to why they wanted it. It’s really more
occult based.
TRACY: Oh, Kali, the Hindu Goddess of Death!
CATHY: Yeah! And I’ve got a sister named Kelly. My daughter’s named Kelly. I didn’t
have any choice in that. Yeah, there are a lot of Kellys out there. Just because someone’s
named that certainly doesn’t indicate any kind of conspiracy, or mind control, or anything
like that. But nevertheless, there is an inordinate number of Kellys out there that have
been used on that level. I think that’s even why they used the name “Kelly Bundy” [on
Married … with Children], because it was so prevalent.
TRACY: I’m so glad that you gave me that answer, because the other thing about how it
makes it easier to track them doesn’t make any sense. If you’ve got 100,000 Kellys that
you’re supposed to track…
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CATHY: That sounds like something that would come more from the Brice Taylor/Sue
Ford direction, since you brought up her name. She is someone that I am certainly
familiar with. I think that she’s done more damage than anybody with her
misinformation, based on the fact that the mind control aspect is something that she
pulled in initially from false memory through her therapist, and kind of stuck to. I can’t
imagine what would motivate somebody to do that. Nevertheless, she was sexually
abused, that I’m aware of from having known her, and she suffered from Dissociative
Identity Disorder, and needed to recover from that. She is one of the most prominently
known victims of the False Memory Syndrome that was being perpetrated through the
mental health system, and which she continues to perpetrate through the misinformation
and disinformation that she’s putting out there, which I think is a crime against humanity
in itself. I wish she would stop, and I wish that she would ultimately find her own peace
and know that truth makes her free. But you know, of course that’s not something that I
can do. All I can do is just count on the reality that truth always prevails, and love wins.
TRACY: I was wondering what you would say about her, because I haven’t read her
whole book [Thanks for the Memories], but I did read an excerpt where she says that she
went and stayed at your house, or that you stayed at her house, you and Mark, and then
she supported you financially for months and months, and went through all this
programming. And then she says, “At the end of it all, Mark told me that I wasn’t a
victim after all.” And it sounds so horrible. I was just wondering what you had to say.
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CATHY: Actually, I had heard that she had rewritten her original novel, when it was a
novel, which I think would have been admirable. She’s someone that Mark helped
recover from a Dissociative Disorder, because we were working real close with mental
health back in those days, and the whole False Memory Syndrome was there. And it is
possible for someone to recover from Dissociative Disorder while having had implanted
false memories through bad therapy, with the “Was that Daddy that did that?” type of
questions. Recovery was possible, and she did recover, but all it did was … I don’t know.
Somewhere along the way she picked up a weird motive and a weird direction. I can’t
understand why somebody would do that, but she did nevertheless. So what does that
mean about the recovery process for someone like that? I don’t know. It just means we’ve
got a whole world of problems out there that we’ve got to overcome, from the
misinformation and disinformation that began back with the Dr. Ewen Cameron mind
control at the very onset of the organization of mental health. That’s another case where
mental health itself needs to think outside of the box, and think beyond the education that
they paid to have, and realize that a PhD doesn’t mean they know it all.
TRACY: I think one of the side effects of this information about Project MONARCH
coming out is that there are a lot of desperate people out there who have been traumatized
in their past, but what they really want is attention.
CATHY: It’s really hard to understand that, you know? For me it is.
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TRACY: I don’t find it hard to understand. It’s like the same type of people who go
around saying that they were abducted by UFOs. I think that it’s the same scenario. I
mean, there are just so many people who come out saying that they were victims of mind
control, and you can tell that they’re just congenital liars. And maybe they did experience
some form of mind control, but how do you separate that from the fact that they’re liars?
CATHY: Exactly. People are people, whether they’ve suffered from a dissociative
disorder or not. When they recover, people are people, and personally, I don’t choose to
live in the “victim mentality,” or the “survivor mentality.” There’s too many exciting
aspect to life. There’s too much to learn, too much to grow with, and this is a phenomenal
process. I am so fortunate to have recovered from all of that, and to be free to think for
myself and to be myself. Living true to soul and being myself every day is a non-stop,
constant pleasure that I never take for granted. It’s given me different priorities in life, a
different perspective on life. Things that other people think are worth arguing about and
fighting about, to me seem really trivial in comparison to the magnitude of what really
happens in this world, and the wonder of our brains.
Where we’re going to be able to go with this information on mind control is exciting in
itself. It will give us a view into the other 90% of our brain that we haven’t used. We’re
always told that we use about 10% of our brain, and with a dissociative disorder, you’re
blasted into other parts of your brain. So much has been learned, and there are so many
exciting things ahead for people to learn, about what their brains are capable of. Once
they realize it, they can utilize it. But that’s an exciting aspect to the future that keeps me
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hopeful that people will wake up, arm themselves with the information so that we can get
the problems taken care of. The truth makes us free, and once we’re free, we’re going to
be able to expand, and learn and grow in ways that people never dreamed were even
possible. The future looks really exciting from my perspective. I can’t imagine miring it
down by clinging to some negativities of the past
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Access Granted: An Interview with Mark Phillips
Mark Phillips is Cathy O’Brien’s husband, and co-author with her of The TRANCE
Formation of America, as well as t
