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[Cope] I feel I'm moderately decent looking but I want to look like a cologne model. Should I get work done for better cheekbones?

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pics range from a 2017 to a few months ago
 

TioJohn

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its impossible to look like a model with your cranium
 

Pendejo

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I think you have strabismus, try to fix that first.
 

danny deVitocel

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You remind me of genetic joke
 

Pendejo

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I do. I should get it corrected before next year. Do you think it's enough to ascend me?
Depends on what you mean by ascend, but it would definitely be an improvement.
Also I feel like you might benefit from neck training, your neck looks thin in relation to your jaw in the pic with the black shirt.
 

Marlo

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Judging by your neck you don’t look overweight so I’m assuming you’re lean.

Your lower third height is good. It’s one of your better features objectively (robust, forward grown). However, due to the rest of your features… it kind of failos you you. There’s some slight assymetry, but judging from your pics Botox won’t really help. Your jaw is two wide, especially on one side. Botox could reduce the width and give you more symmetry, but it’ll still be too wide in relation to your cheekbones and forehead.

Your face shape is like a pear; Jaw way too wide in comparison to your upper third. Nothing can really be done to fix this. There are certain implants that can help, but the change won’t be drastic enough to give you a “model look”.

Also, your angularity is not good. IMO it’s your biggest failo. People that swear by masculinity will see it as a good thing, but I don’t believe it is. Most models, and very good looking people in general, have angular faces. Your gonial angle is approaching 90°, which is fine for a square/masculine face, but 110-120° is more aesthetic with 115° being close to ideal. Like I said, you’re still fine even with your lower gonial angle, but your face is round instead of square. Usually this means you need to lean down to go from round to square but you don’t look overweight. Your cheekbones might be the reason why… they’d need to be higher and wider to give you more angularity, but once again your forehead width fucks you. Any width you add to anything will look worse due to your narrow cranium.

You’re still good looking, you might just need to give up on looking like a model. Softmaxxing will do wonders for you. If you really want to chase that dream… there are some things you can look into.

-forehead/temple implants

Look up Dr. eppley. I believe he’s based in Indiana. He’s one of the better implant surgeons in the country and he is definitely the most innovative. Dr Eppley is the only surgeon I know of that does cranium implants. If you’re looking to improve your entire face, you NEED to start here or everything else will make you look worse.

-jaw angle and chin implants

I’ve never heard of someone trying to increase their gonial angle. Usually people are trying to go from like 130° to 120°. Logically you should be able to increase your gonial angle if you get both jaw angle and chin implants. However, it may not work due to the complete angle of your mandibular body and I could see it giving your jaw a curved appearance. To avoid this, you’d also want to look into…

-wraparound jaw implant.
You’d need to add more height to the jaw to change the angle, so look into this. It covers the entire jaw (ramus, mandibular body, chin). This might make your lower third too tall, but it might be worth looking into.

-cheekbone augmentation.

You could use more width and higher position. Once again, you’d need to fix your upper third first.

Like I said man, you look fine. Male models are literally 1/1,000,000 in terms of looks. Your skull/face shape would make extremely difficult to do anything and it’s probably not worth the money/risk.
 
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Judging by your neck you don’t look overweight so I’m assuming you’re lean.

Your lower third height is good. It’s one of your better features objectively (robust, forward grown). However, due to the rest of your features… it kind of failos you you. There’s some slight assymetry, but judging from your pics Botox won’t really help. Your jaw is two wide, especially on one side. Botox could reduce the width and give you more symmetry, but it’ll still be too wide in relation to your cheekbones and forehead.

Your face shape is like a pear; Jaw way too wide in comparison to your upper third. Nothing can really be done to fix this. There are certain implants that can help, but the change won’t be drastic enough to give you a “model look”.

Also, your angularity is not good. IMO it’s your biggest failo. People that swear by masculinity will see it as a good thing, but I don’t believe it is. Most models, and very good looking people in general, have angular faces. Your gonial angle is approaching 90°, which is fine for a square/masculine face, but 110-120° is more aesthetic with 115° being close to ideal. Like I said, you’re still fine even with your lower gonial angle, but your face is round instead of square. Usually this means you need to lean down to go from round to square but you don’t look overweight. Your cheekbones might be the reason why… they’d need to be higher and wider to give you more angularity, but once again your forehead width fucks you. Any width you add to anything will look worse due to your narrow cranium.

You’re still good looking, you might just need to give up on looking like a model. Softmaxxing will do wonders for you. If you really want to chase that dream… there are some things you can look into.

-forehead/temple implants

Look up Dr. eppley. I believe he’s based in Indiana. He’s one of the better implant surgeons in the country and he is definitely the most innovative. Dr Eppley is the only surgeon I know of that does cranium implants. If you’re looking to improve your entire face, you NEED to start here or everything else will make you look worse.

-jaw angle and chin implants

I’ve never heard of someone trying to increase their gonial angle. Usually people are trying to go from like 130° to 120°. Logically you should be able to increase your gonial angle if you get both jaw angle and chin implants. However, it may not work due to the complete angle of your mandibular body and I could see it giving your jaw a curved appearance. To avoid this, you’d also want to look into…

-wraparound jaw implant.
You’d need to add more height to the jaw to change the angle, so look into this. It covers the entire jaw (ramus, mandibular body, chin). This might make your lower third too tall, but it might be worth looking into.

-cheekbone augmentation.

You could use more width and higher position. Once again, you’d need to fix your upper third first.

Like I said man, you look fine. Male models are literally 1/1,000,000 in terms of looks. Your skull/face shape would make extremely difficult to do anything and it’s probably not worth the money/risk.
Thanks for the thorough analysis. I had no idea my jaw was so disproportionate to everything else.

I always felt like I was good-looking. I would go through a ton of articles and videos describing traits of attractive men and I notice I had so much about me that was "Ideal". Forward growth. Strong, wide jaw, browridge, deep set hunter eyes, minimal eyelid exposure, decent cheekbones, good hairline, good fwhr etc. The only feature I could really tell I didn't exactly have was prominent cheekbones with an ogee curve. I'm kind of shocked how badly disproportionate everything is though.

All I really wanted to do was be good looking enough to get results on dating apps and consistently go on dates where women want to see me again. I've been on too many dates where women didn't want to keep things going after they met me. Guess being good-looking enough for them is out of my reach now.
 
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So, I did some measurements to confirm my gonial angle using a better picture. This was the result.

Screenshot 2021-11-14 232900.jpg
It's pretty clear my gonial angle's much higher than 90 degrees. From the measurement, it's actually pretty close to 115 degrees at 109 degrees. 115 degrees is often considered ideal. It doesn't look like I need to do anything about it.

Given that, there's still something that's keeping me from looking conventionally attractive. My frontal profile has a strong wide jaw but it lacks angularity and it's too round. It's also wider than the rest of my face. This seems like it has something to do with my masseters. I have this weird tick where I chew things constantly like gum, paper, plastic straws, water bottle caps, etc. I've had it for most of my life. It's probably given me huge masseters that look like shit.

I'm going to have a consultation with a cosmetic surgeon to see if it's worth reducing the masseters with botox. Hopefully, that would give me angularity and make my face more harmonious.
 

Marlo

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So, I did some measurements to confirm my gonial angle using a better picture. This was the result.

View attachment 21188
It's pretty clear my gonial angle's much higher than 90 degrees. From the measurement, it's actually pretty close to 115 degrees at 109 degrees. 115 degrees is often considered ideal. It doesn't look like I need to do anything about it.

Given that, there's still something that's keeping me from looking conventionally attractive. My frontal profile has a strong wide jaw but it lacks angularity and it's too round. It's also wider than the rest of my face. This seems like it has something to do with my masseters. I have this weird tick where I chew things constantly like gum, paper, plastic straws, water bottle caps, etc. I've had it for most of my life. It's probably given me huge masseters that look like shit.

I'm going to have a consultation with a cosmetic surgeon to see if it's worth reducing the masseters with botox. Hopefully, that would give me angularity and make my face more harmonious.
Rotate the picture so that the top of the “nub” of your ear lines up to the middle of your septum. This will put your head in neutral position. Your head is tilted down a bit, which will give the illusion of a higher gonial angle.

It’s not that your jaw is out of proportion, honestly. The reason I was given you suggestions related to your jaw is because the real problem, which is your upper third/cranium, is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to fix. I should’ve corrected myself: your main failo is your upper third/cranium. Since that is so difficult to correct, the only thing you can do is see if there is anything that can be done to your lower third to give a more proportional/harmonized look. You’d definitely need to lose some jaw width for that to happen. Ideally, your jaw width would stay the same and your upper third would be wider/more developed.

Still, I think you can make a ton of improvements. Maybe not model-tier, but good, solid improvements. You have great forward growth and you have a good base overall.
 
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Rotate the picture so that the top of the “nub” of your ear lines up to the middle of your septum. This will put your head in neutral position. Your head is tilted down a bit, which will give the illusion of a higher gonial angle.

It’s not that your jaw is out of proportion, honestly. The reason I was given you suggestions related to your jaw is because the real problem, which is your upper third/cranium, is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to fix. I should’ve corrected myself: your main failo is your upper third/cranium. Since that is so difficult to correct, the only thing you can do is see if there is anything that can be done to your lower third to give a more proportional/harmonized look. You’d definitely need to lose some jaw width for that to happen. Ideally, your jaw width would stay the same and your upper third would be wider/more developed.

Still, I think you can make a ton of improvements. Maybe not model-tier, but good, solid improvements. You have great forward growth and you have a good base overall.
You give very good feedback. I'm impressed with all the detail you put into your analysis.

With that said getting an accurate view of the mandible can be very difficult. Positioning your head right. Making the ramus visible enough to get a full view of it. Avoiding distortion caused by taking pictures set too high or too low. All of these factors can give you wildly different results.

Thankfully I figured out a way to get the most accurate view of my mandible possible by getting my dental X-ray records. I know, kind of ridiculous of me to do.
Screenshot 2021-11-19 122902.jpg

It's clear my gonial angle is shaped well over 90 degrees at 115 and my jaw is grown more downwards. This would mean I would have angularity, and from many of the pictures I submitted, that's clearly shown. In pictures from the front, my jaw still looks puffy, rounded, and is wide compared to the rest of my face but that's all due to my masseters. It's not the jaw itself that's wide. Getting all those surgeries you suggested would be reckless when I already have the right features.

All that really needs to change is getting the masseters reduced. I actually set up an appointment for tomorrow to get them treated with botox. I'll post the results in the next coming weeks as the changes become visible.

As for my cheekbones, they're actually perfectly high set and lie right below my eye, You can see it in my pictures. Also, My eyes are narrow and have good undereye support, which is another feature of high cheekbones.. It's difficult to say whether or not they're wide and prominent since my jaw looks so big, but we'll know for sure once I get the muscles reduced. In some pictures, you can see a bulge on the side of my face that's well below the eyes but those aren't my cheekbones. That bulge is also caused by my masseters.

Of course, It's not a guarantee that reducing my masseters will ascend me to a chad. Either way, we'll see what the results are like in the coming weeks.
 

Marlo

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You give very good feedback. I'm impressed with all the detail you put into your analysis.

With that said getting an accurate view of the mandible can be very difficult. Positioning your head right. Making the ramus visible enough to get a full view of it. Avoiding distortion caused by taking pictures set too high or too low. All of these factors can give you wildly different results.

Thankfully I figured out a way to get the most accurate view of my mandible possible by getting my dental X-ray records. I know, kind of ridiculous of me to do.
View attachment 21191

It's clear my gonial angle is shaped well over 90 degrees at 115 and my jaw is grown more downwards. This would mean I would have angularity, and from many of the pictures I submitted, that's clearly shown. In pictures from the front, my jaw still looks puffy, rounded, and is wide compared to the rest of my face but that's all due to my masseters. It's not the jaw itself that's wide. Getting all those surgeries you suggested would be reckless when I already have the right features.

All that really needs to change is getting the masseters reduced. I actually set up an appointment for tomorrow to get them treated with botox. I'll post the results in the next coming weeks as the changes become visible.

As for my cheekbones, they're actually perfectly high set and lie right below my eye, You can see it in my pictures. Also, My eyes are narrow and have good undereye support, which is another feature of high cheekbones.. It's difficult to say whether or not they're wide and prominent since my jaw looks so big, but we'll know for sure once I get the muscles reduced. In some pictures, you can see a bulge on the side of my face that's well below the eyes but those aren't my cheekbones. That bulge is also caused by my masseters.

Of course, It's not a guarantee that reducing my masseters will ascend me to a chad. Either way, we'll see what the results are like in the coming weeks.
I agree, it is over 90°, but I don’t think you’re measuring correctly TBH. I would say it’s between 100-110°. I tried to measure myself but I’d need a clearer picture to make sure. The x-ray would be pretty hard for you to measure because your ramus isn’t completely straight (it angles off at two points, look below where you measured. It angles off, then angles off again. Most people have this, but yours is a lot more noticeable IMO so it’s difficult to see exactly where your mandibular body begins).

If you can, send in an actual picture of your side profile (best lighting you can). Don’t get me wrong, x rays are great for measurements but they don’t take soft tissue/muscle into account. Those things can definitely impact the appearance of your jaw’s angle and won’t show up on an x ray.

Good call on the Botox, that will definitely help your horizontal proportions. However, i don’t think it’s going to do much for your angularity. I’m honestly not trying to put you down, and I’m not going to lie to you and give false hope. After looking at your x-ray, I don’t think you’ll be able to achieve the angularity you’re looking for without implants. A lot of people have the “issue” I’m seeing so it’s to worry about, but if you’re looking for angularity you’d need to get fillers or an implant. That part of your jaw is absolutely crucial for angularity and your gonions are very rounded (gonion = part of the jaw where the ramus transitions to the mandibular body). The rounder the gonions, the rounder the face.

I dont know if you’ve been on lookstheory forums all that long, but we’re not exactly normal when it comes to this stuff. I can say with 99% certainty that nobody in the lookstheory sphere would call your jaw “angular”. There are people on these forums who say Brad Pitt, who is known for his jaw and who’s name is practically synonymous with the word “handsome”, has a rounded jawline (in some pictures). I won’t say that it has nothing to do with your masseters, but there’s a lot more to it. Hypertrophied masseters wouldn’t completely destroy your angularity. I used one of your pics to show you what I mean (I’ll be using Ballou to compare to get a better idea. Ballou is a male model, so his measurements are close to ideal. However, he’s 1/10,000,000 looks wise… in other words, use these comparisons as a guide/understand but just because you don’t look like him doesn’t mean you’re not in the realm of good looking).


The angle measurements aren’t completely accurate but they give a good idea. The three point measurement is anchored at the Adam’s apple and is likely the least accurate of the comparisons but it’s still within a range to give you an idea. Regardless, you can clearly see the differences in angularity. It was actually difficult to get your measurements because your jaw is rounded… think of trying to measure the angle of an oval.

Overall, it’s hard for me to say that your issues are purely because of your masseters, and to me there is clearly a bone structure issue as well. I will write up something for you to fix this issue. It’s much easier than youd think.
 

Marlo

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E09E8697-EBB7-460D-9439-7326266A9FF2.jpegF5E73DF8-C2D3-4E84-8D63-41EDC75D6D2E.jpeg8C52B377-43A6-4F24-8179-CB5EEEB3CFEE.jpeg0F459DEC-47E9-4D5A-BC9C-21DEF9A4EE13.jpegD547653D-EC33-421A-B2AB-475E694A2DEA.jpegBA75BD9F-2754-43A0-B1C3-5479BAF98EBD.jpeg
I agree, it is over 90°, but I don’t think you’re measuring correctly TBH. I would say it’s between 100-110°. I tried to measure myself but I’d need a clearer picture to make sure. The x-ray would be pretty hard for you to measure because your ramus isn’t completely straight (it angles off at two points, look below where you measured. It angles off, then angles off again. Most people have this, but yours is a lot more noticeable IMO so it’s difficult to see exactly where your mandibular body begins).

If you can, send in an actual picture of your side profile (best lighting you can). Don’t get me wrong, x rays are great for measurements but they don’t take soft tissue/muscle into account. Those things can definitely impact the appearance of your jaw’s angle and won’t show up on an x ray.

Good call on the Botox, that will definitely help your horizontal proportions. However, i don’t think it’s going to do much for your angularity. I’m honestly not trying to put you down, and I’m not going to lie to you and give false hope. After looking at your x-ray, I don’t think you’ll be able to achieve the angularity you’re looking for without implants. A lot of people have the “issue” I’m seeing so it’s to worry about, but if you’re looking for angularity you’d need to get fillers or an implant. That part of your jaw is absolutely crucial for angularity and your gonions are very rounded (gonion = part of the jaw where the ramus transitions to the mandibular body). The rounder the gonions, the rounder the face.

I dont know if you’ve been on lookstheory forums all that long, but we’re not exactly normal when it comes to this stuff. I can say with 99% certainty that nobody in the lookstheory sphere would call your jaw “angular”. There are people on these forums who say Brad Pitt, who is known for his jaw and who’s name is practically synonymous with the word “handsome”, has a rounded jawline (in some pictures). I won’t say that it has nothing to do with your masseters, but there’s a lot more to it. Hypertrophied masseters wouldn’t completely destroy your angularity. I used one of your pics to show you what I mean (I’ll be using Ballou to compare to get a better idea. Ballou is a male model, so his measurements are close to ideal. However, he’s 1/10,000,000 looks wise… in other words, use these comparisons as a guide/understand but just because you don’t look like him doesn’t mean you’re not in the realm of good looking).


The angle measurements aren’t completely accurate but they give a good idea. The three point measurement is anchored at the Adam’s apple and is likely the least accurate of the comparisons but it’s still within a range to give you an idea. Regardless, you can clearly see the differences in angularity. It was actually difficult to get your measurements because your jaw is rounded… think of trying to measure the angle of an oval.

Overall, it’s hard for me to say that your issues are purely because of your masseters, and to me there is clearly a bone structure issue as well. I will write up something for you to fix this issue. It’s much easier than youd think.
 
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Either way, I have some degree of angularity that's enough to say it's at least angular. But having a sharp gonion isn't required to be conventionally attractive. Plenty of celebrities and even male models have "round" gonions. Look at Shawn Mendes and john todd. Hell even Ballou's gonion isn't particularly sharp. What really matters is having a lengthy ramus and a gonial angle between 100 - 130 degrees. Even if your gonion isn't necessarily sharp, you'll still have a good, visible jawline. That's what really counts
 

Marlo

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32142817-9E1B-41B5-ACA0-0DA986768D76.jpeg2EC698E7-C860-4D3D-B899-151F20F9E4DD.jpegEither way, I have some degree of angularity that's enough to say it's at least angular. But having a sharp gonion isn't required to be conventionally attractive. Plenty of celebrities and even male models have "round" gonions. Look at Shawn Mendes and john todd. Hell even Ballou's gonion isn't particularly sharp. What really matters is having a lengthy ramus and a gonial angle between 100 - 130 degrees. Even if your gonion isn't necessarily sharp, you'll still have a good, visible jawline. That's what really counts
Ballou is angular. Mendes is pretty angular. John Todd is saved by his laterally projected cheekbones + facial leanness + eye area.

You’re absolutely correct in saying that sharp gonions are not required. No single feature is necessarily required to be conventionally attractive. However, obtaining an angular jawline is a) extremely possible with implants and fillers and b) potentially huge if someone is looking to improve their looks. Going from a non-angular jawline to an angular jawline would make 99% of everyday people (non-celebrities and non-models) look better.

I understand you think you have angularity, but IMO you could benefit a lot from implants or fillers once you sort out the issue with your masseters. After looking over your pictures again, I am also going to recommend that you get leaner. In fact, you might not need implants/fillers if you do that. I thought you were pretty lean at first, but after taking another look it would be impossible for you to be as lean as I thought you were considering your lack of facial definition.

2EC698E7-C860-4D3D-B899-151F20F9E4DD.jpeg

32142817-9E1B-41B5-ACA0-0DA986768D76.jpeg

John Todd’s jaw is definitely on the rounder side, but the differences between your angularity and his are pretty blatant.
 
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When it comes to the jaw, it's less about a particular shape and more about how masculine it is. Rounded gonions and lower gonial angles aren't features that prevent attractiveness. Infact, they can be incredibly attractive. Dolph lundgren and is a prime example.

Look at his guy who got jaw implants.
terino1.png
He clearly ended up with a low gonial angle and rounded gonion yet he's incredibly gorgeous now. Nobody would say he needs a more angular jawline

There are undoubtedly plenty of attractive men with an angular gonion and a higher gonial angle is . However they don't define what makes a jaw attractive. So many different men with so many different jawlines could be considered attractive. I'd argue just as attractive as one another. The only thing that matters when it comes to jaws are wide jaws with with defined jawlines. This means having a mandible that has a a straight jaw with good forward growth, an extended ramus, and a clearly distinguishable jaw and ramus. As long as you have these 3 features, you're going to have a highly attractive lower third.

In my case my lower third looks bad because of my horrible jaw muscles. You can tell it's not the jawline itself. If you look closely,my left side of my jaw is significantly larger and is buldging out more. it give's me a rounded unharmonious face. Thankfully I got the botox treatment last saturday, I can already tell my masseters are reduicing and my cheekbones are starting to show. It's amazing. I won't show the results just yet since it needs more time but I'll probably give an update in about 1-2 weeks or so.
 

Marlo

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When it comes to the jaw, it's less about a particular shape and more about how masculine it is. Rounded gonions and lower gonial angles aren't features that prevent attractiveness. Infact, they can be incredibly attractive. Dolph lundgren and is a prime example.

Look at his guy who got jaw implants.
View attachment 21229
He clearly ended up with a low gonial angle and rounded gonion yet he's incredibly gorgeous now. Nobody would say he needs a more angular jawline

There are undoubtedly plenty of attractive men with an angular gonion and a higher gonial angle is . However they don't define what makes a jaw attractive. So many different men with so many different jawlines could be considered attractive. I'd argue just as attractive as one another. The only thing that matters when it comes to jaws are wide jaws with with defined jawlines. This means having a mandible that has a a straight jaw with good forward growth, an extended ramus, and a clearly distinguishable jaw and ramus. As long as you have these 3 features, you're going to have a highly attractive lower third.

In my case my lower third looks bad because of my horrible jaw muscles. You can tell it's not the jawline itself. If you look closely,my left side of my jaw is significantly larger and is buldging out more. it give's me a rounded unharmonious face. Thankfully I got the botox treatment last saturday, I can already tell my masseters are reduicing and my cheekbones are starting to show. It's amazing. I won't show the results just yet since it needs more time but I'll probably give an update in about 1-2 weeks or so.
Bro, you asked if you should get work done. I have given you numerous suggestions that could improve your appearance. Instead of looking into my suggestions, you keep trying to convince me your that your jaw is good. You’re clearly on here fishing for validation about your appearance.

I’m going to be blatant now so I can get this point across without having a debate: your lower third is shit. It’s rounded, asymmetrical, and lacks definition. Your ramus is short and you have a poor submental area. Botox MIGHT, emphasis on MIGHT, help slightly but there is much more going on than some sort of “jaw muscle” issue, and if you place that much emphasis on jaw width… getting Botox is fucking counterintuitive.

Nobody is denying that round jaws can’t look good on some people, but 99.9% of the people (on forums like these especially) are going to tell you that a sharp, angular jawline is far superior to a wide, rounded jaw. I’m sorry, but there is hardly a fucking argument there. Dolph has a SQUARE jaw, not ROUND. It’s still tapered. It looks sharp. The guy you posted a picture of has a tapered jawline as well. John Todd, even though his jaw is on the rounder side, still has a somewhat sharp jawline and good facial definition.

If you had a top-tier eye area or great harmony, you could absolutely get away with a rounded jaw. However, you do not have either. I promise you you will benefit from actually taking some advice here instead of trying to convince me that your jaw is good because of “masculinity”. Your face is pear shaped; that is not only the worst facial shape, but it is virtually unheard of in men. It is the FARTHEST you can get from a masculine face shape.

I will tag someone who has knowledge on this stuff for a second opinion. @Rkelly please evaluate this guy’s jaw. My suspicion is that he’s going to tell you that your jaw is not good.
 

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