Guide Sphenoid bone the most important key to facial development.

[DoctorDurden]

You said earlier that the ossification of the sphenoid itself does not allow mobilization, and now you are talking about the articulation of the occipital bone. You are mixing up concepts or you do not understand me. And if the total ossification of the sphenoid independently occurs in adolescence, the ossification of the rest of the sutures occurs in adulthood. You are basically agreeing with me.

In osteopathy, changes in the skeletal structure have also been seen, and even if this were the case, it does not prove anything.

By the way, are you a medical student or something?

The sphenoid does not ossify in isolation, and the sphenobasilar synchondrosis (where sphenoid connects to occipital bone) is what LIMITS sphenoidal mobility in adulthood.

The body of sphenoid undergoes ossification in adolescence, the ossification of surrounding sutures occurs a bit later in your 20s. But, that doesn't mean the sphenoid continues to have substantial mobility in adulthood. Its anatomically incorrect.

Then, cranial sutures lose their capacity for movement you're describing. They simply don't provide the necessary flexibility for the type of manipulation that NCR suggests.

The ossification process involves fusion and interdigitation of sutures, which means by early adulthood - mobility is substantially limited, not only in the sphenoid, but in the ENTIRE CRANIAL VAULT.

Btw im not dismissing osteopathy completely, but theres a fundamental difference between manipulation of soft tissue and actual repositioning of bones. Osteopathy focuses on neuromuscular interactions, but it doesn't cause permanent skeletal realignment.

Physiological limits of cranial bone movement after adulthood are well documented. Studies on cranial sutures and cranial base ossification confirm that after a certain age (25 at best), cranial bones become substantially rigid.

 

[lowkeydeadinside]

The sphenoid does not ossify in isolation, and the sphenobasilar synchondrosis (where sphenoid connects to occipital bone) is what LIMITS sphenoidal mobility in adulthood.

The body of sphenoid undergoes ossification in adolescence, the ossification of surrounding sutures occurs a bit later in your 20s. But, that doesn't mean the sphenoid continues to have substantial mobility in adulthood. Its anatomically incorrect.

Then, cranial sutures lose their capacity for movement you're describing. They simply don't provide the necessary flexibility for the type of manipulation that NCR suggests.

The ossification process involves fusion and interdigitation of sutures, which means by early adulthood - mobility is substantially limited, not only in the sphenoid, but in the ENTIRE CRANIAL VAULT.

Btw im not dismissing osteopathy completely, but theres a fundamental difference between manipulation of soft tissue and actual repositioning of bones. Osteopathy focuses on neuromuscular interactions, but it doesn't cause permanent skeletal realignment.

Physiological limits of cranial bone movement after adulthood are well documented. Studies on cranial sutures and cranial base ossification confirm that after a certain age (25 at best), cranial bones become substantially rigid.

chad iq mogs the entire forum with 20 posts

 

[Deleted Member 60978]

The sphenoid does not ossify in isolation, and the sphenobasilar synchondrosis (where sphenoid connects to occipital bone) is what LIMITS sphenoidal mobility in adulthood.

The body of sphenoid undergoes ossification in adolescence, the ossification of surrounding sutures occurs a bit later in your 20s. But, that doesn't mean the sphenoid continues to have substantial mobility in adulthood. Its anatomically incorrect.

Then, cranial sutures lose their capacity for movement you're describing. They simply don't provide the necessary flexibility for the type of manipulation that NCR suggests.

The ossification process involves fusion and interdigitation of sutures, which means by early adulthood - mobility is substantially limited, not only in the sphenoid, but in the ENTIRE CRANIAL VAULT.

Btw im not dismissing osteopathy completely, but theres a fundamental difference between manipulation of soft tissue and actual repositioning of bones. Osteopathy focuses on neuromuscular interactions, but it doesn't cause permanent skeletal realignment.

Physiological limits of cranial bone movement after adulthood are well documented. Studies on cranial sutures and cranial base ossification confirm that after a certain age (25 at best), cranial bones become substantially rigid.

Do you read what you write? You just contradicted yourself in the first 2 lines. "The sphenoid does not ossify in isolation" and then you said "The body of sphenoid undergoes ossification in adolescence, the ossification of surrounding sutures occurs a bit later in your 20s." Yes it does the sphenoid ossifies as its own structure before the sutures that connect it ossify, it is obvious and pure logic that the sphenoid is made up of wings that at an early age have to adapt in order to later ossify into a solid bone JFL. Lowkey, you have answered the question if you are a medical student.

You've simply taken and left out whatever you wanted in this discussion, such as the ethmoid bone. I should have ended this in a simpler way, any palatal expansion will affect the sphenoid as they are connected and take longer to ossify, curiously they ossify at more or less the same time in early adulthood. You've changed your premise all the time, you've gone from "constant forces are the only way brah" to ossification of the bones to suit you. And then this discussion stopped making sense the moment you admitted that the sphenoid ossifies with the occipital bone in adulthood.

There are cases in which osteopathy has achieved changes in the skeletal system.

If you have anything else to say you better reply to everything raised in the discussion and not make it seem like it was generated by ChatGPT.

 

[DoctorDurden]

Do you read what you write? You just contradicted yourself in the first 2 lines. "The sphenoid does not ossify in isolation" and then you said "The body of sphenoid undergoes ossification in adolescence, the ossification of surrounding sutures occurs a bit later in your 20s." Yes it does the sphenoid ossifies as its own structure before the sutures that connect it ossify, it is obvious and pure logic that the sphenoid is made up of wings that at an early age have to adapt in order to later ossify into a solid bone JFL. Lowkey, you have answered the question if you are a medical student.

You've simply taken and left out whatever you wanted in this discussion, such as the ethmoid bone. I should have ended this in a simpler way, any palatal expansion will affect the sphenoid as they are connected and take longer to ossify, curiously they ossify at more or less the same time in early adulthood. You've changed your premise all the time, you've gone from "constant forces are the only way brah" to ossification of the bones to suit you. And then this discussion stopped making sense the moment you admitted that the sphenoid ossifies with the occipital bone in adulthood.

There are cases in which osteopathy has achieved changes in the skeletal system.

If you have anything else to say you better reply to everything raised in the discussion and not make it seem like it was generated by ChatGPT.

Contradiction? The sphenoid undergoes endochondral ossification in a staged process, firstly with presphenoid and postsphenoid centres.(at a young age)
Then the greater and lesser wings, which ossify separately and fuse by, iirc, 15-17. (or 16 at best).

Then the integration with adjacent sutures. The sphenobasilar synchondrosis connects sphenoid to occipital bone, ossifies later at like ~25y, causing sphenoid to integrate into the cranial base.

Basically, once the sphenobasilar synchondrosis is fused, the sphenoid becomes structurally LOCKED into the cranial base, not allowing any independent movement.

MARPEs apply force via the intermaxillary suture. The sphenoid's role in cranial dynamics is not one of active movement but passive load distribution. You're saying that palatal expansion affects sphenoid is mixing TWO DIFFERENT CONCEPTS, localized midfacial expansion ≠ cranial base mobility, its biomechanically unsupported.

Ethmoid is largely immobile due to its ossification pattern. Your reference to palatal expansion influencing the ethmoid lacks a logical biomechanical pathway, as the ethmoid isn't subjected to direct tensile forces in any documented craniofacial expansion study. Btw the cribriform plate is rigid and ossifies early, if thats what ur looking for.

Osteopathy can modulate soft tissue tension and influence cranial strain patterns. But no rigorous peer reviewed study has demonstrated macroscopic, permanent skeletal change in a fully ossified adult skull. Those "changes" are myofascial remodeling, cerebrospinal fluid dynamics or postural realignment. Your claim lacks radiographic evidence. Its anecdotal at best.

You have oscillated between claiming sphenoid maintains post ossification mobility and that it is affected by external forces via sutural dynamics. Okay, lets say hypothetically the sphenoid IS functionally mobile in adulthood, that means its articulations should also be flexible, right? But this contradicts known cranial fusion timelines.

If your claims were valid, then mature sutures, which histologically transition from dense connective tissue to mineralized bridging trabeculae would have to exhibit mechanical properties inconsistent with all known craniometric studies on sutural ossification kinetics.

Your claims contradict well documented findings in forensic anthropology and developmental biomechanics, which show that once sutural synostosis occurs, external forces lack the capacity to induce structural cranial realignment beyond transient periosteal deformation or soft tissue compensation.

 

[Deleted Member 60978]

Contradiction? The sphenoid undergoes endochondral ossification in a staged process, firstly with presphenoid and postsphenoid centres.(at a young age)
Then the greater and lesser wings, which ossify separately and fuse by, iirc, 15-17. (or 16 at best).

Then the integration with adjacent sutures. The sphenobasilar synchondrosis connects sphenoid to occipital bone, ossifies later at like ~25y, causing sphenoid to integrate into the cranial base.

Basically, once the sphenobasilar synchondrosis is fused, the sphenoid becomes structurally LOCKED into the cranial base, not allowing any independent movement.

MARPEs apply force via the intermaxillary suture. The sphenoid's role in cranial dynamics is not one of active movement but passive load distribution. You're saying that palatal expansion affects sphenoid is mixing TWO DIFFERENT CONCEPTS, localized midfacial expansion ≠ cranial base mobility, its biomechanically unsupported.

Ethmoid is largely immobile due to its ossification pattern. Your reference to palatal expansion influencing the ethmoid lacks a logical biomechanical pathway, as the ethmoid isn't subjected to direct tensile forces in any documented craniofacial expansion study. Btw the cribriform plate is rigid and ossifies early, if thats what ur looking for.

Osteopathy can modulate soft tissue tension and influence cranial strain patterns. But no rigorous peer reviewed study has demonstrated macroscopic, permanent skeletal change in a fully ossified adult skull. Those "changes" are myofascial remodeling, cerebrospinal fluid dynamics or postural realignment. Your claim lacks radiographic evidence. Its anecdotal at best.

You have oscillated between claiming sphenoid maintains post ossification mobility and that it is affected by external forces via sutural dynamics. Okay, lets say hypothetically the sphenoid IS functionally mobile in adulthood, that means its articulations should also be flexible, right? But this contradicts known cranial fusion timelines.

If your claims were valid, then mature sutures, which histologically transition from dense connective tissue to mineralized bridging trabeculae would have to exhibit mechanical properties inconsistent with all known craniometric studies on sutural ossification kinetics.

Your claims contradict well documented findings in forensic anthropology and developmental biomechanics, which show that once sutural synostosis occurs, external forces lack the capacity to induce structural cranial realignment beyond transient periosteal deformation or soft tissue compensation.

Yes, contradiction, you said that the sphenoid does not ossify in isolation and now you have just described the entire process of the unique ossification of the sphenoid.

I mentioned that the ossification of the sphenoid, ONLY OF THE SPHENOID, did not affect cranial mobility because it is still not ossified with the occipital bone.

And no, I have not mentioned that the ethmoid is affected by palatal expansion. I have mentioned the reddit thread in which the mewing, when developing his face, moved his ethmoid bone. Another argument for how maxillofacial development should be approached from a holistic point of view because it affects the craniosacral.

3- LAUGH MY FUCKING ASS OFF MEN, WHAT THE FUCK ARE U SAYING. I have never said that the role of the sphenoid is that of active movement. The function of the spheoid is to form a united cranial base, and from that to take advantage of basic concepts of bone remodeling. Then I will refer to your statement that the palatal expansion is only located in the maxilla and the palatine bones. JFL WTF.


Note how the sphenoid changes position completely depending on maxillofacial development, which also links to the reddit thread.. Yes, what happens to the maxilla and palatine bones affects the position of the sphenoid. Denying this is pointless and only makes one thing clear. Your knowledge does not seem like yours. You cannot have such extensive knowledge of the name of the anatomy of the sphenoid and say such stupid things.

And I have not oscillated between anything, my main claim remains the same. The before, during and after its ossification is mobile as long as it does not ossify completely with the rest of its sutures. And again, the ossification of the sphenoid does not affect the ossification of the sutures. And the ossification of the sphenoid has nothing to do with the ossification of its sutures. And movement would be achieved through other non-solidified sutures Which would not exist since the MARPE/MSE are not functional after the ossification of the sphenopalatine suture and the palatine suture, which occur at the same time. What makes the MSE and MARPE valid for the same time interval as the NCR.

 

[childishkillah]

chad iq mogs the entire forum with 20 posts

I haven't read half of the argue but the IQ is among the highest I've seen on these shitty forums

 

[DoctorDurden]

Yes, contradiction, you said that the sphenoid does not ossify in isolation and now you have just described the entire process of the unique ossification of the sphenoid.

I mentioned that the ossification of the sphenoid, ONLY OF THE SPHENOID, did not affect cranial mobility because it is still not ossified with the occipital bone.

And no, I have not mentioned that the ethmoid is affected by palatal expansion. I have mentioned the reddit thread in which the mewing, when developing his face, moved his ethmoid bone. Another argument for how maxillofacial development should be approached from a holistic point of view because it affects the craniosacral.

3- LAUGH MY FUCKING ASS OFF MEN, WHAT THE FUCK ARE U SAYING. I have never said that the role of the sphenoid is that of active movement. The function of the spheoid is to form a united cranial base, and from that to take advantage of basic concepts of bone remodeling. Then I will refer to your statement that the palatal expansion is only located in the maxilla and the palatine bones. JFL WTF. View attachment 78774

View attachment 78775
Note how the sphenoid changes position completely depending on maxillofacial development, which also links to the reddit thread.. Yes, what happens to the maxilla and palatine bones affects the position of the sphenoid. Denying this is pointless and only makes one thing clear. Your knowledge does not seem like yours. You cannot have such extensive knowledge of the name of the anatomy of the sphenoid and say such stupid things.

And I have not oscillated between anything, my main claim remains the same. The before, during and after its ossification is mobile as long as it does not ossify completely with the rest of its sutures. And again, the ossification of the sphenoid does not affect the ossification of the sutures. And the ossification of the sphenoid has nothing to do with the ossification of its sutures. And movement would be achieved through other non-solidified sutures Which would not exist since the MARPE/MSE are not functional after the ossification of the sphenopalatine suture and the palatine suture, which occur at the same time. What makes the MSE and MARPE valid for the same time interval as the NCR.

Your argument is fundamentally FLAWED due to incorrect anatomical interpretations.

You're saying that the sphenoid ossifies independently but remains mobile until occipital fusion, this literally contradicts established cranial ontogeny. The sphenoid undergoes endochondral ossification in diff. stages beginning with presphenoid and postsphenoid cartilaginous precursors.

The true structural integration occurs w/ fusion of sphenobasilar synchondrosis which transitions from fibrocartilage to mineralized bone between 17-20y.

Once this is complete, no functional movement occurs, not because of occipital fusion but because the sphenoid itself gets locked into the cranial base via ossified articulations with the frontal, ethmoid, temporal and vomer bones.

Your claim that it remains mobile until occipital fusion is GROSS OVERSIMPLIFICATION that ignores primary ossification centres, synchondrosis kinetics, and post fusion microarchitecture.

Dude you are still conflating sutural remodeling in maxilla with active sphenoidal mobility. They are biomechanically distinct.
MARPE induces forces to midpalatal suture, which is a fibrous join and not a synchondrosis. The expansion of this suture causes secondary displacement of surrounding structures but does not induce active rotation of sphenoid.

Your claim that maxillary development alters sphenoidal positioning goes against BASIC CRANIOFACIAL BIOMECHANICS. The maxilla while articulating with the sphenoid at the pterygopalatine suture, does not exert force on the sphenoid that would induce rotational and translational movement post skeletal maturity.

You literally lost all your credibility as a user the moment you mentioned "mewing". i have nothing to say about that bs because it is pure cope.

And, the ethmoid is structurally embedded with the neurocranium with rigid articulations to frontal, sphenoid and nasal bones. Its lamina cribrosa and perpendicular plate fuse early. Any claim of independent ethmoid displacement post puberty is physiologically absurd unless caused by pathology (trauma, craniofacial dysplasia or iatrogenic manipulation).

AND JFL AT THE FACT THAT YOU'RE USING SOME DUMBASS REDDIT ANECDOTE AS PROOF WHILE HERE I AM TRYING TO HELP YOU UNDERSTAND CRANIOFACIAL BIOMECHANICS.

"Ossification of sphenoid does not affect ossification of sutures" JFL, this ignores the fact that ossified sutures inherently lose mobility.

"Movement would be achieved through other non solidified sutures" WTF? Yet you acknowledge MARPE is ineffective once palatine sutures ossify lmao. This proves sutural ossification restricts movement.

IF NCR INDUCES PERMANENT SKELETAL CHANGES IN A FULLY OSSIFIED SKULL, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO PROVIDE -
I) Radiographic Proof
II) Histological studies showing remineralization of sutures following NCR
III) Biomechanical models showing post ossification cranial bone kinematics.

POST ADOLESCENT CRANIAL SUTURES ARE NOT MOBILE IN ANY CLINICALLY SIGNIFICANT WAY, AND NCR HAS NO DOCUMENTED ABILITY TO INDUCE SKELETAL CHANGES BEYOND TRANSIENT SOFT TISSUE ADAPTATIONS.

 

[Deleted Member 60978]

Your argument is fundamentally FLAWED due to incorrect anatomical interpretations.

You're saying that the sphenoid ossifies independently but remains mobile until occipital fusion, this literally contradicts established cranial ontogeny. The sphenoid undergoes endochondral ossification in diff. stages beginning with presphenoid and postsphenoid cartilaginous precursors.

The true structural integration occurs w/ fusion of sphenobasilar synchondrosis which transitions from fibrocartilage to mineralized bone between 17-20y.

Once this is complete, no functional movement occurs, not because of occipital fusion but because the sphenoid itself gets locked into the cranial base via ossified articulations with the frontal, ethmoid, temporal and vomer bones.

Your claim that it remains mobile until occipital fusion is GROSS OVERSIMPLIFICATION that ignores primary ossification centres, synchondrosis kinetics, and post fusion microarchitecture.

Dude you are still conflating sutural remodeling in maxilla with active sphenoidal mobility. They are biomechanically distinct.
MARPE induces forces to midpalatal suture, which is a fibrous join and not a synchondrosis. The expansion of this suture causes secondary displacement of surrounding structures but does not induce active rotation of sphenoid.

Your claim that maxillary development alters sphenoidal positioning goes against BASIC CRANIOFACIAL BIOMECHANICS. The maxilla while articulating with the sphenoid at the pterygopalatine suture, does not exert force on the sphenoid that would induce rotational and translational movement post skeletal maturity.

You literally lost all your credibility as a user the moment you mentioned "mewing". i have nothing to say about that bs because it is pure cope.

And, the ethmoid is structurally embedded with the neurocranium with rigid articulations to frontal, sphenoid and nasal bones. Its lamina cribrosa and perpendicular plate fuse early. Any claim of independent ethmoid displacement post puberty is physiologically absurd unless caused by pathology (trauma, craniofacial dysplasia or iatrogenic manipulation).

AND JFL AT THE FACT THAT YOU'RE USING SOME DUMBASS REDDIT ANECDOTE AS PROOF WHILE HERE I AM TRYING TO HELP YOU UNDERSTAND CRANIOFACIAL BIOMECHANICS.

"Ossification of sphenoid does not affect ossification of sutures" JFL, this ignores the fact that ossified sutures inherently lose mobility.

"Movement would be achieved through other non solidified sutures" WTF? Yet you acknowledge MARPE is ineffective once palatine sutures ossify lmao. This proves sutural ossification restricts movement.

IF NCR INDUCES PERMANENT SKELETAL CHANGES IN A FULLY OSSIFIED SKULL, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO PROVIDE -
I) Radiographic Proof
II) Histological studies showing remineralization of sutures following NCR
III) Biomechanical models showing post ossification cranial bone kinematics.

POST ADOLESCENT CRANIAL SUTURES ARE NOT MOBILE IN ANY CLINICALLY SIGNIFICANT WAY, AND NCR HAS NO DOCUMENTED ABILITY TO INDUCE SKELETAL CHANGES BEYOND TRANSIENT SOFT TISSUE ADAPTATIONS.

No, the sphenoid ossifies before its sutures, and that still allows it mobility. https://www.redalyc.org/pdf/3822/382239052001.pdf
The pdf already debunks the ages you mention.

And the fact that the sphenoid is ossified from cartilaginous tissue only proves, once again, that I am right and that the sphenoid ossifies on its own, with a process that you have already described, JFL, you don't even understand what you yourself write.

Once again, in less than 2 lines you contradict yourself or make a mistake or do not understand what you write or, more likely, all at once.

"The true structural integration occurs w/ fusion of sphenobasilar synchondrosis which transitions from fibrocartilage to mineralized bone between 17-20y.

Once this is complete, no functional movement occurs, not because of occipital fusion but because the sphenoid itself gets locked into the cranial base via ossified articulations with the frontal, ethmoid, temporal and vomer bones."

??????

Do I really have to answer this? I'll just put a pic



No, I'm not confusing anything, you are the one who believes that cranial development is isolated and that changes in directly connected bones do not affect others. And this is simply debunked with the models of progression in cranial development which goes absolutely hand in hand with the mechanics of the cranial bones.


I'm not using a reddit anecdote as a basis, I'm starting to question whether you have basic logical-linguistic ability. This is more anecdotal evidence that reinforces the already established model.
Furthermore, there are no studies that discuss how much the mobilization of the bones of the Viscerocranium affects the neurocranium So your statement that "It does not generate a relevant movement" is is not known.
And finally, I see that you are once again turning your lens to disprove the NCR, from "Cranial mechanics and anatomy go against the principles of the NCR" which I have already proven false to "There are no scientifically rigorous studies on its functionality." Once again demonstrating that your arguments are based on your convenience and not on the search for a conclusive result.


View attachment you-my-son-i-m-yo-daddy-1080-ytshorts.savetube.me.mp4

 

[childishkillah]

The pdf already debunks the ages you mention.

And the fact that the sphenoid is ossified from cartilaginous tissue only proves, once again, that I am right and that the sphenoid ossifies on its own, with a process that you have already described, JFL, you don't even understand what you yourself write.

Once again, in less than 2 lines you contradict yourself or make a mistake or do not understand what you write or, more likely, all at once.

"The true structural integration occurs w/ fusion of sphenobasilar synchondrosis which transitions from fibrocartilage to mineralized bone between 17-20y.

Once this is complete, no functional movement occurs, not because of occipital fusion but because the sphenoid itself gets locked into the cranial base via ossified articulations with the frontal, ethmoid, temporal and vomer bones."

??????
View attachment 78787
Do I really have to answer this? I'll just put a pic

View attachment 78788

No, I'm not confusing anything, you are the one who believes that cranial development is isolated and that changes in directly connected bones do not affect others. And this is simply debunked with the models of progression in cranial development which goes absolutely hand in hand with the mechanics of the cranial bones.
View attachment 78789

I'm not using a reddit anecdote as a basis, I'm starting to question whether you have basic logical-linguistic ability. This is more anecdotal evidence that reinforces the already established model.
Furthermore, there are no studies that discuss how much the mobilization of the bones of the Viscerocranium affects the neurocranium So your statement that "It does not generate a relevant movement" is is not known.
And finally, I see that you are once again turning your lens to disprove the NCR, from "Cranial mechanics and anatomy go against the principles of the NCR" which I have already proven false to "There are no scientifically rigorous studies on its functionality." Once again demonstrating that your arguments are based on your convenience and not on the search for a conclusive result.


View attachment 78790

Dnr

 

[Deleted Member 60978]

Dnr

Don't care.

 

[childishkillah]

Don't care.

I read it now bhai.

 

[DoctorDurden]

No, the sphenoid ossifies before its sutures, and that still allows it mobility. https://www.redalyc.org/pdf/3822/382239052001.pdf
The pdf already debunks the ages you mention.

And the fact that the sphenoid is ossified from cartilaginous tissue only proves, once again, that I am right and that the sphenoid ossifies on its own, with a process that you have already described, JFL, you don't even understand what you yourself write.

Once again, in less than 2 lines you contradict yourself or make a mistake or do not understand what you write or, more likely, all at once.

"The true structural integration occurs w/ fusion of sphenobasilar synchondrosis which transitions from fibrocartilage to mineralized bone between 17-20y.

Once this is complete, no functional movement occurs, not because of occipital fusion but because the sphenoid itself gets locked into the cranial base via ossified articulations with the frontal, ethmoid, temporal and vomer bones."

??????
View attachment 78787
Do I really have to answer this? I'll just put a pic

View attachment 78788

No, I'm not confusing anything, you are the one who believes that cranial development is isolated and that changes in directly connected bones do not affect others. And this is simply debunked with the models of progression in cranial development which goes absolutely hand in hand with the mechanics of the cranial bones.
View attachment 78789

I'm not using a reddit anecdote as a basis, I'm starting to question whether you have basic logical-linguistic ability. This is more anecdotal evidence that reinforces the already established model.
Furthermore, there are no studies that discuss how much the mobilization of the bones of the Viscerocranium affects the neurocranium So your statement that "It does not generate a relevant movement" is is not known.
And finally, I see that you are once again turning your lens to disprove the NCR, from "Cranial mechanics and anatomy go against the principles of the NCR" which I have already proven false to "There are no scientifically rigorous studies on its functionality." Once again demonstrating that your arguments are based on your convenience and not on the search for a conclusive result.


View attachment 78790

JFL I can't believe im still putting up with you and your reddit anecdotes as proof.

The sphenoid begins ossifying from multiple centres, then completing endochondral ossification by end of adolescence.

the sphenobasilar synchondrosis, the last cartilaginous articulation of sphenoid is fully mineralized by the same age, this means no physiological movement occur after this age.

The ossification of its articulations (frontosphenoidal, sphenotemporal, sphenovomerine etc) follows a progressive mineralization pattern, interdigitating into fully fused synarthroses by adulthood.

There is ZERO EVIDENCE, ZERO HISTOLOGICAL, RADIOGRAPHIC OR BIOMECHANICAL evidence that shows the ossified sphenoid undergoes independent, functional movement post maturity. If there is, provide a CT SCAN evidence. You can't.


Yes, the sphenoid and maxilla are connected, but doesn't mean maxillary changes induce direct sphenoidal mobility. Again you're conflating localized sutural remodeling with systemic cranial kinematics.


If you were right, every adult with maxillary expansion would show radiographically significant sphenoidal displacement. They don't.
Show one CBCT scan that proves sphenoidal movement independent of sutural remodeling. You can't.


Your INSANE attempt at using a reddit anecdote (yes, anecdote) to support ethmoidal mobility is medically absurd.

The ethmoid is embedded within the neurocranium and ossifies before sphenoid.

It articulates with 13 bones in fixed, interdigitated sutures.

The cribriform plate is one of the earliest ossified structures, integrating into the frontal bone, so post maturity movement is impossible outside of trauma, pathology or surgical intervention.

PLEASE DONT PROJECT YOUR LOGICAL FAILURES ONTO ME

You originally claimed "sphenoid ossification does not affect cranial mobility"
Then you say "sphenoid ossifies separately before sutures fuse"

Then you argued "cranial sutures still allow movement after ossification."
Then you say "NCR is valid because sphenoid is still mobile" JFL HOW????

And then your last ditch effort to move the goalpost - "there are no studies that discuss how much the mobilization of the bones of the Viscerocranium affects the neurocranium"

This fails basic logic, the lack of EVIDENCE ≠ this phenomenon exists lol
And the burden to bring proof is on you, to show NCR causes permanent skeletal changes.
SHOW ME ONE CEPHALOMETRIC ANALYSIS WHERE THERE HAS BEEN MEASURABLE CRANIAL BONE MOVEMENT FROM NCR.

 

[Deleted Member 60978]

JFL I can't believe im still putting up with you and your reddit anecdotes as proof.

The sphenoid begins ossifying from multiple centres, then completing endochondral ossification by end of adolescence.

the sphenobasilar synchondrosis, the last cartilaginous articulation of sphenoid is fully mineralized by the same age, this means no physiological movement occur after this age.

The ossification of its articulations (frontosphenoidal, sphenotemporal, sphenovomerine etc) follows a progressive mineralization pattern, interdigitating into fully fused synarthroses by adulthood.

There is ZERO EVIDENCE, ZERO HISTOLOGICAL, RADIOGRAPHIC OR BIOMECHANICAL evidence that shows the ossified sphenoid undergoes independent, functional movement post maturity. If there is, provide a CT SCAN evidence. You can't.


Yes, the sphenoid and maxilla are connected, but doesn't mean maxillary changes induce direct sphenoidal mobility. Again you're conflating localized sutural remodeling with systemic cranial kinematics.


If you were right, every adult with maxillary expansion would show radiographically significant sphenoidal displacement. They don't.
Show one CBCT scan that proves sphenoidal movement independent of sutural remodeling. You can't.


Your INSANE attempt at using a reddit anecdote (yes, anecdote) to support ethmoidal mobility is medically absurd.

The ethmoid is embedded within the neurocranium and ossifies before sphenoid.

It articulates with 13 bones in fixed, interdigitated sutures.

The cribriform plate is one of the earliest ossified structures, integrating into the frontal bone, so post maturity movement is impossible outside of trauma, pathology or surgical intervention.

PLEASE DONT PROJECT YOUR LOGICAL FAILURES ONTO ME

You originally claimed "sphenoid ossification does not affect cranial mobility"
Then you say "sphenoid ossifies separately before sutures fuse"

Then you argued "cranial sutures still allow movement after ossification."
Then you say "NCR is valid because sphenoid is still mobile" JFL HOW????

And then your last ditch effort to move the goalpost - "there are no studies that discuss how much the mobilization of the bones of the Viscerocranium affects the neurocranium"

This fails basic logic, the lack of EVIDENCE ≠ this phenomenon exists lol
And the burden to bring proof is on you, to show NCR causes permanent skeletal changes.
SHOW ME ONE CEPHALOMETRIC ANALYSIS WHERE THERE HAS BEEN MEASURABLE CRANIAL BONE MOVEMENT FROM NCR.

"I'm not using a Reddit anecdote as a basis, I'm starting to question whether you have basic logic and language skills. This is more anecdotal evidence reinforcing the already established model."

"JFL, I can't believe I still tolerate you and your Reddit anecdotes as proof."

This nga can't read.

"The intrasphenoidal synchondrosis, located between the presphenoid and basilesphenoid, plays a pivotal role in the anteroposterior growth of the sphenoid bone. It normally fuses between 12 and 15 years of age, marking an important stage in the development of the skull base." A study you yourself sent me. Scheuer & Negro (2000)

Mann, RW, Jantz, RL, Bass, WM, & Willey, PS (1991). "Obliteration of the maxillary suture: a test of the Mann method for estimating age at death." Journal of Forensic Sciences.

The seb closes between 18 and 25 years

Skeletal changes and postoperative stability after maxillary advancement surgery.

The effects of mandibular movements on cranial bone morphology.

Studies supporting the craniofacial development model.

There are no studies simply because it is a logical question that the capacity for mobility exists when a suture is not ossified. This n***a wants to study that why water is wet.


"You originally claimed "sphenoid ossification does not affect cranial mobility"
Then you say "sphenoid ossifies separately before sutures fuse"

Then you argued "cranial sutures still allow movement after ossification."
Then you say "NCR is valid because sphenoid is still mobile" JFL HOW????"

How does this contradict????

 

[DoctorDurden]

"I'm not using a Reddit anecdote as a basis, I'm starting to question whether you have basic logic and language skills. This is more anecdotal evidence reinforcing the already established model."

"JFL, I can't believe I still tolerate you and your Reddit anecdotes as proof."

This nga can't read.

"The intrasphenoidal synchondrosis, located between the presphenoid and basilesphenoid, plays a pivotal role in the anteroposterior growth of the sphenoid bone. It normally fuses between 12 and 15 years of age, marking an important stage in the development of the skull base." A study you yourself sent me. Scheuer & Negro (2000)

Mann, RW, Jantz, RL, Bass, WM, & Willey, PS (1991). "Obliteration of the maxillary suture: a test of the Mann method for estimating age at death." Journal of Forensic Sciences.

The seb closes between 18 and 25 years

Skeletal changes and postoperative stability after maxillary advancement surgery.

The effects of mandibular movements on cranial bone morphology.

Studies supporting the craniofacial development model.

There are no studies simply because it is a logical question that the capacity for mobility exists when a suture is not ossified. This n***a wants to study that why water is wet.


"You originally claimed "sphenoid ossification does not affect cranial mobility"
Then you say "sphenoid ossifies separately before sutures fuse"

Then you argued "cranial sutures still allow movement after ossification."
Then you say "NCR is valid because sphenoid is still mobile" JFL HOW????"

How does this contradict????

"The intrasphenoidal synchondrosis, located between the presphenoid and basilesphenoid, plays a pivotal role in the anteroposterior growth of the sphenoid bone. It normally fuses between 12 and 15 years of age"

Congrats, you just lost.

This proves that the sphenoidal endochondral ossification is complete before maxillary sutures even begin to ossify

If the sphenoid's intrinsic growth potential ceases by 15, it can't remain mobile afterwards, except for pathological conditions (craniosynostosis)

You are now forced to accept that the sphenoid becomes structurally locked into the cranial base BY ADOLESCENCE ITSELF JFL. Which directly contradicts your claim that it retains mobility in adulthood.

Now your deranged contradictions -->

1. "Sphenoid ossification does not affect cranial mobility"
> If ossification doesn't affect mobility, then ossified bones should still move.

Then,

2. "Sphenoid ossifies separately before sutures fuse"
> This confirms that sphenoidal ossification happens first, meaning it loses independent mobility before sutures ossify.

3. "Cranial sutures still allow movement after ossification"
> If ossification doesn't stop mobility, then why are you relying on sutures?

4. "NCR is valid because sphenoid is still mobile"
> if sutures determine movement, sphenoid mobility cannot be independent.

If you can't provide empirical evidence, your argument is simply a speculation.

The claim that sutures allow movement doesn't automatically prove functional, measurable cranial movements occur post maturity.

If your claim was valid, then why hasn't any osteopathic, orthodontic or craniofacial biomechanics study measured this supposed mobility?

BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXIST.


"Studies supporting the craniofacial development model."

NONE of the cited studies directly support NCR induced skeletal remodeling in adults.

(A) "Maxillary advancement surgery proves skeletal remodeling"

LF1 osteotomy or distraction osteogenesis requires osteotomized fractures at the pterygopalatine junction, zygomatic buttress and nasal floor.

These surgeries induce controlled trauma, followed by osteogenic callus formation and secondary bone remodeling via endochondral ossification.

THIS IS NOT COMPARABLE TO NCR, which lacks osteogenic stimulus capable of inducing skeletal remodeling at a clinically significant level.


(B) "Mandibular movements affect cranial morphology"

TMJ dynamics and cranial deformation in early development ≠ sphenoid mobility in ossified adults.

Craniofacial growth follows remodeling, displacement and rotation principles, where mandibular repositioning can induce adaptive changes in dentoalveolar structures, NOT IN THE SPHENOID AFTER OSSIFICATION.

Neurocranial bones lack periosteal osteogenic adaptability post maturation, meaning NCR cannot alter cranial base morphology after cessation of skeletal growth.

Until you deliver empirical data, i wont reply to you as your argument remains pure conjecture, unsupported by developmental biology, orthopedic biomechanics, or forensic anthropology.

This debate is over. You have lost.

 

[Deleted Member 60978]

"The intrasphenoidal synchondrosis, located between the presphenoid and basilesphenoid, plays a pivotal role in the anteroposterior growth of the sphenoid bone. It normally fuses between 12 and 15 years of age"

Congrats, you just lost.

This proves that the sphenoidal endochondral ossification is complete before maxillary sutures even begin to ossify

If the sphenoid's intrinsic growth potential ceases by 15, it can't remain mobile afterwards, except for pathological conditions (craniosynostosis)

You are now forced to accept that the sphenoid becomes structurally locked into the cranial base BY ADOLESCENCE ITSELF JFL. Which directly contradicts your claim that it retains mobility in adulthood.

Now your deranged contradictions -->

1. "Sphenoid ossification does not affect cranial mobility"
> If ossification doesn't affect mobility, then ossified bones should still move.

Then,

2. "Sphenoid ossifies separately before sutures fuse"
> This confirms that sphenoidal ossification happens first, meaning it loses independent mobility before sutures ossify.

3. "Cranial sutures still allow movement after ossification"
> If ossification doesn't stop mobility, then why are you relying on sutures?

4. "NCR is valid because sphenoid is still mobile"
> if sutures determine movement, sphenoid mobility cannot be independent.

If you can't provide empirical evidence, your argument is simply a speculation.

The claim that sutures allow movement doesn't automatically prove functional, measurable cranial movements occur post maturity.

If your claim was valid, then why hasn't any osteopathic, orthodontic or craniofacial biomechanics study measured this supposed mobility?

BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXIST.


"Studies supporting the craniofacial development model."

NONE of the cited studies directly support NCR induced skeletal remodeling in adults.

(A) "Maxillary advancement surgery proves skeletal remodeling"

LF1 osteotomy or distraction osteogenesis requires osteotomized fractures at the pterygopalatine junction, zygomatic buttress and nasal floor.

These surgeries induce controlled trauma, followed by osteogenic callus formation and secondary bone remodeling via endochondral ossification.

THIS IS NOT COMPARABLE TO NCR, which lacks osteogenic stimulus capable of inducing skeletal remodeling at a clinically significant level.


(B) "Mandibular movements affect cranial morphology"

TMJ dynamics and cranial deformation in early development ≠ sphenoid mobility in ossified adults.

Craniofacial growth follows remodeling, displacement and rotation principles, where mandibular repositioning can induce adaptive changes in dentoalveolar structures, NOT IN THE SPHENOID AFTER OSSIFICATION.

Neurocranial bones lack periosteal osteogenic adaptability post maturation, meaning NCR cannot alter cranial base morphology after cessation of skeletal growth.

Until you deliver empirical data, i wont reply to you as your argument remains pure conjecture, unsupported by developmental biology, orthopedic biomechanics, or forensic anthropology.

This debate is over. You have lost.

DNR
View attachment 4590769-f662318435c83935c7cb00843312ada9.mp4

 

[osteochondromyxoma]

Nice avi man

haha thanks

 

[ey88]

gonna read this sometime else holy essay

TDLR: inflate a balloon in your mouth

 

[Deleted Member 60978]

TDLR: inflate a balloon in your mouth

TLDNR: Take the rope.

 

[ey88]

TLDNR: Take the rope.

TLDR: this shit probably does absolutely nothing

 

[lowkeydeadinside]

TLDR: this shit probably does absolutely nothing

tldr be born chad

 

[DoctorDurden]

TLDR: this shit probably does absolutely nothing

filling your mouth up with a balloon turns you into an 8 PSL Terrachad

 

[ey88]

filling your mouth up with a balloon turns you into an 8 PSL Terrachad

Even professional treatment doesn’t seem to do shit but maybe improve posture

 

[Deleted Member 60978]

Even professional treatment doesn’t seem to do shit but maybe improve posture
View attachment 78829
View attachment 78830
View attachment 78832

JFL thinks that the NCR alone does something. Stay in the off topic chap.

 

[lowkeydeadinside]

Even professional treatment doesn’t seem to do shit but maybe improve posture
View attachment 78829
View attachment 78830
View attachment 78832

the purpose of ncr is to just alter cranial sutures to make things like sarpe or mse more effective, on its own even the ncr supporters will say it does fuck all.

 

[lowkeydeadinside]

it’s clear that those ppl don’t looksmaxx lmao

 

[Deleted Member 60978]

"The intrasphenoidal synchondrosis, located between the presphenoid and basilesphenoid, plays a pivotal role in the anteroposterior growth of the sphenoid bone. It normally fuses between 12 and 15 years of age"

Congrats, you just lost.

This proves that the sphenoidal endochondral ossification is complete before maxillary sutures even begin to ossify

If the sphenoid's intrinsic growth potential ceases by 15, it can't remain mobile afterwards, except for pathological conditions (craniosynostosis)

You are now forced to accept that the sphenoid becomes structurally locked into the cranial base BY ADOLESCENCE ITSELF JFL. Which directly contradicts your claim that it retains mobility in adulthood.

Now your deranged contradictions -->

1. "Sphenoid ossification does not affect cranial mobility"
> If ossification doesn't affect mobility, then ossified bones should still move.

Then,

2. "Sphenoid ossifies separately before sutures fuse"
> This confirms that sphenoidal ossification happens first, meaning it loses independent mobility before sutures ossify.

3. "Cranial sutures still allow movement after ossification"
> If ossification doesn't stop mobility, then why are you relying on sutures?

4. "NCR is valid because sphenoid is still mobile"
> if sutures determine movement, sphenoid mobility cannot be independent.

If you can't provide empirical evidence, your argument is simply a speculation.

The claim that sutures allow movement doesn't automatically prove functional, measurable cranial movements occur post maturity.

If your claim was valid, then why hasn't any osteopathic, orthodontic or craniofacial biomechanics study measured this supposed mobility?

BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXIST.


"Studies supporting the craniofacial development model."

NONE of the cited studies directly support NCR induced skeletal remodeling in adults.

(A) "Maxillary advancement surgery proves skeletal remodeling"

LF1 osteotomy or distraction osteogenesis requires osteotomized fractures at the pterygopalatine junction, zygomatic buttress and nasal floor.

These surgeries induce controlled trauma, followed by osteogenic callus formation and secondary bone remodeling via endochondral ossification.

THIS IS NOT COMPARABLE TO NCR, which lacks osteogenic stimulus capable of inducing skeletal remodeling at a clinically significant level.


(B) "Mandibular movements affect cranial morphology"

TMJ dynamics and cranial deformation in early development ≠ sphenoid mobility in ossified adults.

Craniofacial growth follows remodeling, displacement and rotation principles, where mandibular repositioning can induce adaptive changes in dentoalveolar structures, NOT IN THE SPHENOID AFTER OSSIFICATION.

Neurocranial bones lack periosteal osteogenic adaptability post maturation, meaning NCR cannot alter cranial base morphology after cessation of skeletal growth.

Until you deliver empirical data, i wont reply to you as your argument remains pure conjecture, unsupported by developmental biology, orthopedic biomechanics, or forensic anthropology.

This debate is over. You have lost.

""The intrasphenoidal synchondrosis, located between the presphenoid and basilesphenoid, plays a pivotal role in the anteroposterior growth of the sphenoid bone. It normally fuses between 12 and 15 years of age"

Congrats, you just lost.

This proves that the sphenoidal endochondral ossification is complete before maxillary sutures even begin to ossify

If the sphenoid's intrinsic growth potential ceases by 15, it can't remain mobile afterwards, except for pathological conditions"

No n***a, The ossification of the sphenoid does not imply that it has become immobile; what would make the sphenoid immobile would be ossification with the occipital bone.

"You are now forced to accept that the sphenoid becomes structurally locked into the cranial base BY ADOLESCENCE ITSELF JFL. Which directly contradicts your claim that it retains mobility in adulthood."


""Studies supporting the craniofacial development model."

NONE of the cited studies directly support NCR induced skeletal remodeling in adults."

n***a LEARN TO READ. What does the craniofacial development model have to do with the ncr JFL

Now your deranged contradictions -->

"1. "Sphenoid ossification does not affect cranial mobility"
> If ossification doesn't affect mobility, then ossified bones should still move."

The sphenoid has a very different ossification process than the rest of the bones.

2. "Sphenoid ossifies separately before sutures fuse"
> This confirms that sphenoidal ossification happens first, meaning it loses independent mobility before sutures ossify.

Ossification of the sphenoid does not mean that it immediately loses mobility, since it remains attached to other bones through cartilage and non-ossified sutures, that allow mobility.

3. "Cranial sutures still allow movement after ossification"
> If ossification doesn't stop mobility, then why are you relying on sutures?

Where i have said that?

4. "NCR is valid because sphenoid is still mobile"
> if sutures determine movement, sphenoid mobility cannot be independent.

JFL.

If you can't provide empirical evidence, your argument is simply a speculation.

Yes, it is simple speculation because there are no studies that address NCR, I rely on already proven logic.
""Studies supporting the craniofacial development model."

"NONE of the cited studies directly support NCR induced skeletal remodeling in adults."

As I said, the model is the model. The NCR is the NCR.
(A) "Maxillary advancement surgery proves skeletal remodeling"

LF1 osteotomy or distraction osteogenesis requires osteotomized fractures at the pterygopalatine junction, zygomatic buttress and nasal floor.

These surgeries induce controlled trauma, followed by osteogenic callus formation and secondary bone remodeling via endochondral ossification.

THIS IS NOT COMPARABLE TO NCR, which lacks osteogenic stimulus capable of inducing skeletal remodeling at a clinically significant level."

You don't even understand what I'm replying to. No, this isn't about NCR, it's about how the mobility of the bones of the viscerocranium affects the neurocranium. Specifically, the nasal anatomy in this case.
"Neurocranial bones lack periosteal osteogenic adaptability post maturation, meaning NCR cannot alter cranial base morphology after cessation of skeletal growth.

Until you deliver empirical data, i wont reply to you as your argument remains pure conjecture, unsupported by developmental biology, orthopedic biomechanics, or forensic anthropology."

If your problem with NCR is that there is no scientific evidence that addresses it directly, you could have said so from the beginning. I wouldn't have wasted my time and I would have told you that I think it's respectable that you don't trust NCR for that specific reason, but you wanted to go down the anatomical and mechanical side where NCR makes sense as I've already shown.

This debate is over.

View attachment you-my-son-i-m-yo-daddy-1080-ytshorts.savetube.me.mp4

 

[DoctorDurden]

""The intrasphenoidal synchondrosis, located between the presphenoid and basilesphenoid, plays a pivotal role in the anteroposterior growth of the sphenoid bone. It normally fuses between 12 and 15 years of age"

Congrats, you just lost.

This proves that the sphenoidal endochondral ossification is complete before maxillary sutures even begin to ossify

If the sphenoid's intrinsic growth potential ceases by 15, it can't remain mobile afterwards, except for pathological conditions"

No n***a, The ossification of the sphenoid does not imply that it has become immobile; what would make the sphenoid immobile would be ossification with the occipital bone.

"You are now forced to accept that the sphenoid becomes structurally locked into the cranial base BY ADOLESCENCE ITSELF JFL. Which directly contradicts your claim that it retains mobility in adulthood."

View attachment 78943
""Studies supporting the craniofacial development model."

NONE of the cited studies directly support NCR induced skeletal remodeling in adults."

n***a LEARN TO READ. What does the craniofacial development model have to do with the ncr JFL

Now your deranged contradictions -->

"1. "Sphenoid ossification does not affect cranial mobility"
> If ossification doesn't affect mobility, then ossified bones should still move."

The sphenoid has a very different ossification process than the rest of the bones.

2. "Sphenoid ossifies separately before sutures fuse"
> This confirms that sphenoidal ossification happens first, meaning it loses independent mobility before sutures ossify.

Ossification of the sphenoid does not mean that it immediately loses mobility, since it remains attached to other bones through cartilage and non-ossified sutures, that allow mobility.

3. "Cranial sutures still allow movement after ossification"
> If ossification doesn't stop mobility, then why are you relying on sutures?

Where i have said that?

4. "NCR is valid because sphenoid is still mobile"
> if sutures determine movement, sphenoid mobility cannot be independent.

JFL.

If you can't provide empirical evidence, your argument is simply a speculation.

Yes, it is simple speculation because there are no studies that address NCR, I rely on already proven logic.
""Studies supporting the craniofacial development model."

"NONE of the cited studies directly support NCR induced skeletal remodeling in adults."

As I said, the model is the model. The NCR is the NCR.
(A) "Maxillary advancement surgery proves skeletal remodeling"

LF1 osteotomy or distraction osteogenesis requires osteotomized fractures at the pterygopalatine junction, zygomatic buttress and nasal floor.

These surgeries induce controlled trauma, followed by osteogenic callus formation and secondary bone remodeling via endochondral ossification.

THIS IS NOT COMPARABLE TO NCR, which lacks osteogenic stimulus capable of inducing skeletal remodeling at a clinically significant level."

You don't even understand what I'm replying to. No, this isn't about NCR, it's about how the mobility of the bones of the viscerocranium affects the neurocranium. Specifically, the nasal anatomy in this case.
"Neurocranial bones lack periosteal osteogenic adaptability post maturation, meaning NCR cannot alter cranial base morphology after cessation of skeletal growth.

Until you deliver empirical data, i wont reply to you as your argument remains pure conjecture, unsupported by developmental biology, orthopedic biomechanics, or forensic anthropology."

If your problem with NCR is that there is no scientific evidence that addresses it directly, you could have said so from the beginning. I wouldn't have wasted my time and I would have told you that I think it's respectable that you don't trust NCR for that specific reason, but you wanted to go down the anatomical and mechanical side where NCR makes sense as I've already shown.

This debate is over.

View attachment 78945

Dont reply again unless you have a weird fetish of being humiliated on an incel forum.


"The ossification of the sphenoid does not imply that it has become immobile; what would make the sphenoid immobile would be ossification with the occipital bone."

You previously argued that the sphenoid retains mobility in adulthood due to patent sutures.
If the sphenoid fuses with the cranial base in adolescence, it has already lost its independent mobility before maxillary sutures even ossify.

Conclusion: Your claim that the sphenoid remains mobile even after ossification is destroyed by basic anatomy JFL. Go and read you illiterate piece of shit.

"What does the craniofacial development model have to do with the ncr JFL"

Your ENTIRE argument was built on the idea that cranial sutures allow movement into adulthood JFL.

If NCR actually worked, it would require cranial sutures to exhibit meaningful mobility in adults, which they don't.

Conclusion: Your backpedaling after realizing your fuckery of a framework is scientifically untenable.

"Yes, it is simple speculation because there are no studies that address NCR, I rely on already proven logic."

muh "there are no studies proving NCR, b-b-but i use logic saar! "

This is Pseudoscience 101.

This is no longer a debate on science lol, you just admitted your belief is a speculation and nothing else. While i literally showed you the source of everything i said, which is well documented and recorded.

NOT EVEN KIDDING, YOUR REPLY IS GENUINELY PAINFUL TO READ. YOU HAVE COMPLETELY MISUNDERSTOOD ORTHOPEDIC BIOMECHANICS.

You are ignoring that post-maturity bone remodeling occurs through microstain driven osteoclastic and osteoblastic activity.

You are acting as if cranial sutures function like hinge joints, WHICH IS COMPLETE BS.

TALKING TO YOU IS LIKE EXPLAINING QUANTUM PHYSICS TO A FUCKING BRICK LMAO.

The sphenobasilar synchondrosis ossifies via endochondral transition by ~16, or around that age, eliminating intrinsic cranial kinesis. Post maturational suture interdigitation renders viscerocranial mobility negligible. NCR lacks osteogenic stimulus and mechanotransductive viability, making skeletal remodeling biologically impossible. Your contradictions are misapplying developmental models to post maturity, misunderstanding suture mechanics, and ignoring orthopedic thresholds JFLLLL. Your argument is not just flawed lmao, it is biomechanically impossible.

Either you're mentally deranged or you're a 9 year old larping on this forum to gain attention. Or both.

Still caging at the "saar NCR has no proof but... but... my feelings say otherwise "

 

[Deleted Member 60978]

Dont reply again unless you have a weird fetish of being humiliated on an incel forum.


"The ossification of the sphenoid does not imply that it has become immobile; what would make the sphenoid immobile would be ossification with the occipital bone."

You previously argued that the sphenoid retains mobility in adulthood due to patent sutures.
If the sphenoid fuses with the cranial base in adolescence, it has already lost its independent mobility before maxillary sutures even ossify.

Conclusion: Your claim that the sphenoid remains mobile even after ossification is destroyed by basic anatomy JFL. Go and read you illiterate piece of shit.

"What does the craniofacial development model have to do with the ncr JFL"

Your ENTIRE argument was built on the idea that cranial sutures allow movement into adulthood JFL.

If NCR actually worked, it would require cranial sutures to exhibit meaningful mobility in adults, which they don't.

Conclusion: Your backpedaling after realizing your fuckery of a framework is scientifically untenable.

"Yes, it is simple speculation because there are no studies that address NCR, I rely on already proven logic."

muh "there are no studies proving NCR, b-b-but i use logic saar! "

This is Pseudoscience 101.

This is no longer a debate on science lol, you just admitted your belief is a speculation and nothing else. While i literally showed you the source of everything i said, which is well documented and recorded.

NOT EVEN KIDDING, YOUR REPLY IS GENUINELY PAINFUL TO READ. YOU HAVE COMPLETELY MISUNDERSTOOD ORTHOPEDIC BIOMECHANICS.

You are ignoring that post-maturity bone remodeling occurs through microstain driven osteoclastic and osteoblastic activity.

You are acting as if cranial sutures function like hinge joints, WHICH IS COMPLETE BS.

TALKING TO YOU IS LIKE EXPLAINING QUANTUM PHYSICS TO A FUCKING BRICK LMAO.

The sphenobasilar synchondrosis ossifies via endochondral transition by ~16, or around that age, eliminating intrinsic cranial kinesis. Post maturational suture interdigitation renders viscerocranial mobility negligible. NCR lacks osteogenic stimulus and mechanotransductive viability, making skeletal remodeling biologically impossible. Your contradictions are misapplying developmental models to post maturity, misunderstanding suture mechanics, and ignoring orthopedic thresholds JFLLLL. Your argument is not just flawed lmao, it is biomechanically impossible.

Either you're mentally deranged or you're a 9 year old larping on this forum to gain attention. Or both.

Still caging at the "saar NCR has no proof but... but... my feelings say otherwise "

Bro, I take it very seriously. I'll shit on you again later I'm lazy now my fellow faggy 60 iqcel

 

[DoctorDurden]

Bro, I take it very seriously. I'll shit on you again later I'm lazy now my fellow faggy 60 iqcel

Go blow a balloon in your mouth and change your face you homoerotic fat fuck.

 

[Deleted Member 60978]

Go blow a balloon in your mouth and change your face you homoerotic fat fuck.

Wa wa wa keep crying boyo

 

[lowkeydeadinside]

both send dick pics then whoever’s is bigger wins, sound fair?

 

[DoctorDurden]

both send dick pics then whoever’s is bigger wins, sound fair?

but @EndlessRequiem has barely hit puberty, how is it a fair competition for the poor guy?

 

[Deleted Member 60978]

but @EndlessRequiem has barely hit puberty, how is it a fair competition for the poor guy?

I'm a girl btw

 

[CrackyLolra]

After much debate on whether I should do this thread or not, I have decided that I will do it, honestly the greycels and 99% of the forum will never do this method but if someone is low enough inhib and has little to lose this could help them to have an ascension.

First I would like to clarify the importance of the sphenoid bone in facial development. This topic has already been discussed in a previous thread, but I will include it in this thread as well: https://forum.looksmaxxing.com/threads/sphenoid-bone-alignment-is-everything.31020/

"IMPORTANCE OF THE SPHENOID BONE"
The Sphenoid Bone Is the FOUNDATION of almost all maxillofacial problems. For it Is the area that the bones in your face emerge from.

And IMPROPER ENVIRONMENT not BAD GENETICS, is the reason many modern humans lack proper sphenoid allignment.

Here is an interesting study I found that looked at the relation to poor posture to malloclusion.

Relationships between Malocclusion, Body Posture, and Nasopharyngeal Pathology in Pre-Orthodontic Children - PMC

Malocclusion, body posture, and breathing pattern may be correlated, but this issue is still controversial. The aim of the study was to examine the relationship between the type of malocclusion, body posture, and nasopharyngeal obstruction in ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In the study it is stated that:

"There was a statistically significant correlation between presence of kyphotic posture and a reduction in the SNB angle, representing sagittal position of the mandible. Also, there was a statistically significant association between kyphotic posture and nasopharyngeal obstruction"

The most important takeaway is that It found that poor (kyphotic) posture, had a significant correlation with obstruction of the nasopharynx.

To understand why this is so important, I'll ask you to refer to this image.

View attachment 78481


The red area is the nasopharynx and the green area is the sphenoid. Notice how close they are together?

Now look at the following gif, look at how as the sphenoid bone alligns properly, the nasopharynx becomes LESS obstructed.

View attachment 78482

To put it simply, without the study even mentioning it. It demonstrated that SHIT POSTURE BREEDS SHIT SPHENOID ALLIGNMENT, which also inadvertently makes everything else about your face develop improperly. (mallocusion, sleep apnea etc..)

It should start to make a bit more sense now. EVERYTHING IN YOUR SKULL IS CONNECTED TO THE SPHENOID, and the fact that modern orthodontistry only addresses these problems on a surface level instead of a holistic approach.


How the sphenoid relates to the maxilla (Expansion and forward growth):

Relationship of the Sphenoid to the Maxilla: Expansion and Projection
The sphenoid bone plays a CRUCIAL ROLE in the structure and position of the maxilla. It connects directly to the maxilla via the sphenopalatine suture (the red area), meaning that any change in its position can influence the shape and development of the maxilla/midface.

View attachment 78483

When the sphenoid is in an unfavorable position (e.g. tilted or compressed), it can RESTRICT MAXILLA GROWTH in two directions:

Laterally, by limiting palatal expansion.
Forward, by preventing optimal maxilla projection.

In my previous thread, I detailed my palatal expansion plan to improve my facial structure and dental alignment. However, to maximize these results, correcting the position of the sphenoid is also key.

A correctly positioned sphenoid will facilitate maxillary expansion by reducing resistance from the skull base, allowing the maxilla to widen more easily. But most importantly, it can also unlock the anteroposterior projection of the maxilla, which has a direct impact on facial aesthetics by:

Improving the prominence of the midface.
Highlighting the cheekbones and facial bone structure.
Optimizing the relationship between the maxilla and the mandible for better occlusion. (Lifefuel for fucked up bitecels)

D

Lifefuel / Motivation My Palatal Expansion and Dental Alignment Plan to be an optimal maxillofacial development mogger:

Feb 23, 2025

After researching for a while on palatal expansion and its impact on facial aesthetics, I decided to follow a progressive approach to obtain maximum improvement in both transverse (width-wise) and sagittal (forward) maxillary skeletal expansion. I am sharing my plan for feedback, critique, and to perhaps help others who are considering something similar. The plan is divided into three appliances:

Step 1: Rapid Expansion with RPE (Rapid Palatal Expander)



I will start with an RPE, which is a rapid palatal expander. This type of expander opens the palatal suture...

• Deleted Member 60978
• Replies: 9
• Forum: Mewing

• 
• 

Craneal release:

So if I do an NCR and most of the bones are connected to the face, will I be able to release most of my cranial sutures?

Yes, basically, doing NCR is like use WD-40 in the rusty screws of a structure so everything can move better. Since the sphenoid is in the center of the skull and articulates with a bunch of facial bones, when you tighten it, you unlock a knock-on effect on a lot of other sutures. And if the sutures are less stiff, the bones of the face can move and accommodate better, which is key to looksmaxxing.

What happens if you release these sutures?
Each one affects facial aesthetics in a different way:


Sphenopalatine Suture → Easier maxillary expansion
Median Palatal Suture → Optimized maxillary expansion

View attachment 78534

Sphenooccipital Suture → Better posture and better jaw support
Sphenotemporal Suture → Better aligned and more symmetrical jaw.
Sphenofrontal Suture → More aligned eyes and better facial symmetry

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NCR guide:​

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NCR (Neuro Cranial Restructuring)​

What is NCR? NCR is a powerful technique to loosen the bones and sutures in your face, as well as releases connective tissues to unwind the body and return it to it’s original design. It first started back in the 90s as a specific form of Bilateral Nasal Specific (BNS), which BNS was used back in the 1930s. So as you can see its been around for a while.

What exactly is NCR though? NCR is basically were you inflate a balloon in your skull. Sounds crazy I know but it is actually a medical practice.

What are the benefits of NCR?

NCR successfully improves many conditions including:

· Anxiety

· Attention Deficit Disorder; poor concentration and focus; dyslexia, hyperactivity and other learning disabilities; autism

· Depression

· Cerebral palsy; down's syndrome

· Concussion and other head injuries; brain surgery

· Dystonia

· Ear infection, acute & chronic, & deafness; tinnitus

· Glaucoma; double vision; other vision problems

· Headaches, head pressure and migraines

· Low energy (fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue)

· TMD or TMJ (Mouth, head and jaw pains)

· Multiple sclerosis

· Muscular dystrophy

· Muscle spasms; neck and shoulder pain

· Orthodontic stress and bruxism (grinding)

· Parkinson's disease and tremors

· Sciatica; kyphosis (hunchback); lordosis (swayback); scoliosis (a spiral spine); military spine (from whiplash) and other back problems

· Seizures

· Sinusitis; sleep apnea; snoring; breathing and sinus disorders

· Strokes; thrombosis (excessive blood clotting)

· Vertigo and other balance problems

and lastly improved symmetry and cranial facial structure



How does NCR work?


NCR when done by a professional usually lasts 4 days with 1 hour treatment everyday and done once a month. It firsts starts off with a massage on the patient to open up the spine and allow skeletal alignment. Than the doctor analyzes the body’s pattern of balance to see which spots of the skull should be unlocked. Next the doctor inserts endonasal balloons through the nostril into the top of the throat through one of the six nasal passageways. The inflating bulb is squeezed, pumping air into the balloon and puffing up the nostril. Air pressure in the balloon increases, pressing outward against the bones inside the nose and upper throat. The pressure eventually pushes the balloon into the top of the throat and the bony joints of the head briefly open, releasing tensions stored in the connective tissues. The bone structures of the head now shift. So it basically release tension in the sphenoid bone and in the skull and helps it to become more loose and to be able to move more freely. But most of you know that pressure causes the sutures and bones to tighten. Yes this is true, but the amount of force causes their to be such a build in pressure that the pressure “breaks” and the bones become looser than ever before. The reason why some people get negative results is they don’t apply enough pressure and it just makes the school tighter (more on this later).

Here is a similar explanation from someone else:

“Here's the best way to understand it: the connective tissues (dura mater) hold the skull in place, and as skull is impacted in minor ways over time, these impacts "scrunch" the connective tissue pulling the skull plates with it. Over the course of various traumas the connective tissue becomes more and more scrunched and tense. Obviously there needs to be some kind of intervention to loosen the tissue and let it retake its original shape, but how? By nudging the sphenoid, apparently. When the sphenoid moves (less than .5mm), 20 other bones are "pushed" or "pulled" about ever so slightly. As the balloon is inflated, the sphenoid resists, tension builds in the skull, then comes the release. If you were to imagine it in numbers, let's say your connective tissue tension level starts at 75. With each inflation of the balloon against the sphenoid, tension movesup to 76, 77, 78 as the sphenoid resists, then suddenly gives slightly and releases back down to 73. This is why when people don't use enough force and don't get a proper amount of release, but instead just built more tension in the connective tissue, they get bad results or negative results. The wonderful thing about all of this is that tension in the connective tissue correlates directly with bone symmetry, cerebrospinal fluid flow and other important processes. As the connective tissuesdrop tension, the face becomes more beautiful and natural the way it would be without nutritional, emotional, genetic and physical trauma.”


How do I find a professional for NCR?

I would recommend you to search online and try to find one near you. But for many of you if not all, your not going to find one anywhere close to you, so that is were at home NCR comes into play. (Also not to mention its like 500 dollars per session and I know y’all some broke mofos)


Self NCR, the Basics:

First lets talk about the risks of Self NCR

• Bone Fracture (You have to use a insane amount of force, like a crazy amount, trust me this won’t happen)
• Inhaling the balloon (Just follow the steps ahead and this won’t happen)
• Regression in symmetry and facial structure (This happens from not using enough pressure and not being consistent)

I want everyone to know that NCR doctors use a lot of force , and they build the force up in the nasal passage until the balloon essentially explodes into the upper throat/sphenoid. I don't recommend doing it this way at all. I've never needed to, the goal is to feel expansion throughout your face. Usually after the 3rd inflation or so you'll feel it in one side of your face, maybe one ear, then in the next inflation or two you'll feel it in the other side of your face. Once you get it in both sides, stop. Or if you've already inflated 5 times, stop (safety precaution). Once you get the hang of things you can do it your own way, but it helps in the beginning to know what to feel for.


To summarize: Use enough force when squeezing the bulb to feel expansion throughout one side of your face and into the other side. Once you feel expansion throughout your whole face, stop inflating. If you've already inflated 5 times or more than 20 seconds and have felt no expansion, stop and move to a different nasal passage.

How to make your device:​

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Here is the equipment I use

• Sphygmomanometer bulb with release valve
• Finger cots (large)
• Dental floss (waxed)
• Flat tooth picks

You can buy all of this on amazon


Here is one fully constructed:

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Make sure to wrap the dental floss 20-30x around so it doesn’t explode in your mouth, its also important to hold your breath during the treatment to lower any chances of inhaling the balloon. Make sure to replace your finger cot every 3-4 treatments.

Locating the Sphenoid Bone​

Many people don’t release that they are doing the treatment wrong at the begging. Most people inflate in the nasal turbinate's instead of the open space behind them.

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Notice in the illustration above the three "holes" between the turbinate's. These are the nasal passages. There are three passages in each nostril. The goal is to insert the balloon through the passage so that most of the balloon is resting just behind the turbinate and into the upper throat (near the sphenoid bone, that white bone surrounding the sphenoid sinus in the above illustration). The best way to get the balloon through the nasal passage is to use the blunt end of a toothpick and a lubricated balloon (finger cot with water). To reach the top passage, insert the balloon while pushing it up against the top wall of the nose. To reach the bottom passage, insert the balloon while pushing it against the bottom wall of the nose. To get the balloon resting behind a nasal passage and into the throat, squeeze the bulb slowly, gently, and fully while pushing and making slight twists. This will ensure the balloon is straightened and in place. Once it's behind a nasal passage and in the throat you will feel it reach "open air." If the finger cot balloon is too large, it can possibly come down into the throat and gag you when inflated. If it's too small you won't be able to get it all the way through the nasal passage.

Inflating the Balloon:​

This is what I do: stand up in front of a mirror, making full pumps (squeezing out all the air) in succession, 3-4 times, pump in rapid succession. Never pump more than 5 times in one nasal passage, especially if you get no movement/expansion/release. During inflation, always hold the breath to ensure the balloon wont be inhaled. If there's a sudden pressure differential (release of pressure in the throat) and a feeling of movement/expansion through one side of the face then the next, immediately deflate the balloon and withdraw it from the nasal passage. Usually I'll feel the expansion through one side of my face after 13 inflations, then on the 3rd4th inflation I'll feel it in the other side of my face>through to the ear. When the expansion has gone through both sides of the face, stop. Some people think they're supposed to hear a cracking sound or feel something phenomenal but this probably won't happen all at once unless a lot of force is used (not recommended). The NCR specialists use a ton of force and treat only four times a month in order to maximize each treatment. It’s better to treat yourself 12-15 times gently and without all the massage.

Best Patterns:​

Asymmetrical Method (TL ML BL or TR MR BR)


Asymmetrical = top left, middle left, bottom left the first day... top right, middle right, bottom right the second day, etc. Some people also study their face closely, and treat asymmetrically on the weakest side. So for example if the left side is more narrow than the right side, they would treat the left side until it's even with the right. This actually does work although the NCR doctors are told it's unreliable (probably having to do with promoting and controlling the techniques involved in NCR). Dr. Howell invented proprioceptive testing, which supposedly allows the NCR practitioner to determine the "most unstable" part of the physical structure to correct, corresponding to an area of the sphenoid. I still haven't determined whether this is true or not. It seems there are more effective placements and less effective placements, but it's not all or nothing as NCR practitioners claim. This method is not available to me or anyone else, as it takes a while to learn. This is primarily what sets NCR apart from BNS and other balloon based cranial therapies.


Intuitive Placement Method


The method that works the best for the most people is intuitive placement. If one side of the face is particularly asymmetrical or narrow, you may want to treat on that side (because you'll get greater expansion on the side of the face that you're treating). You can use these kinds of assessments to decide the best place for the balloon, and oftentimes this means going in the same nasal passage over and over. There's nothing wrong with that, but you may want to experiment and try other passages just to get a better sense over time for the best placement. In either case if you're treating the left side or right side, or upper passage or lower passage, bones throughout the face and head will change position (especially in the beginning)

When and how often?​

I treat between 2pm and 8pm assuming a normal day/night schedule, and no later than 8pm (earlier than 2pm is okay). Treating too early in the morning can be risky as you get tired, whereas too late in the day might make you too energized to sleep. Also, doctors advise 20 minutes of walking per day at minimum (POST treatment) to facilitate and stimulate the unwinding process. I agree. As for the question of "how often?" Dr. Howell writes, He goes on to say that the patient who underwent 24 treatments in one month had excellent results, but a lot more cranial sensitivity ("movement" aka unwinding sensations in the skull/body). I stick with 10-15 times (days) per month. It only takes a minute or two each day.

Achieving Maximum Results:​

People need to be in the right mindset when it comes to healing at such a fundamental, structural level. The body will not change if it isn't ready to change. These therapies are essentially about undoing, allowing the body to reset to it's ideal, normal position. The body will hold its current unhealthy structure and 'wind back up' after treatment if it isn't given what it needs to unwind. Getting on a good diet, avoiding sugar and wheat, sticking to a regular exercise routine, stretching and yoga are extremely helpful strategies recommended by all practitioners.

Thanks Ben for your protocol.
Results in posture:
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